Published on September 11, 2003 By grayhaze In WinCustomize Talk
I thought I'd pre-empt this discussion before Kona's comment in the other thread sparked it off there. There is concrete proof that we evolved, but no proof that we were created. What's you're opinion, and why?

To quote Phoebe from Friends: "I guess the real question is who put those fossils there and why?"
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on Sep 13, 2003


The Case for Christ - The Hearing
Is there a case for Christ? If there were to be an arbitrary legal hearing - a court case to determine whether or not Jesus Christ is in fact the only begotten Son of God - would He be vindicated by the evidence, or exposed as a fraud?

The Case for Christ - The Prosecutor
Has anybody ever compiled the evidence to determine the case for Christ? As a matter of fact, Lee Strobel, an atheist at the time he undertook this endeavor, decided that he would prove Jesus Christ to be a fraud by the weight of the evidence. Strobel was certainly qualified to undertake such a task, compiling the case against Christ. He has a Master of Studies in Law degree from Yale Law School and was an award-winning journalist at the Chicago Tribune. Strobel's area of expertise was Courtroom Analyst and he rose to the rank of Legal Editor of the Chicago Tribune. Furthermore, Strobel was not biased towards defending Christ - he was an atheist!

The Case for Christ - The Findings
Strobel divides the case for Christ into three basic sections:

1. The Historical Record:

The eyewitness evidence (can the biographies of Jesus Christ be trusted, and do they stand up to scrutiny?)
The documentary evidence (were the biographies of Jesus reliably preserved for us?)
The corroborating evidence (is there credible evidence for Jesus Christ outside of His biographies?)
The scientific evidence (does archaeology confirm or contradict Jesus' biographies?)
The rebuttal evidence (is the Jesus of history the same as the Jesus of Christian faith?)
2. A Profile of Jesus Christ:
The identity evidence (was Jesus really convinced that He was the Son of God?)
The psychological evidence (was Jesus crazy when He claimed to be the Son of God?)
The profile evidence (did Jesus fulfill the attributes of God?)
The fingerprint evidence (did Jesus - and Jesus alone - match the identity of the prophesied Messiah?)
3. The Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ:
The medical evidence (was the death of Jesus Christ a sham and His resurrection a hoax?)
The evidence of the missing body (was Jesus' body really absent from His tomb?)
The evidence of His appearances (was Jesus seen alive after His death on the cross?)
The circumstantial evidence (are there any supporting facts that point to the resurrection?)

The Case for Christ - Examining the Evidence
In trying the case for Christ, Strobel cross-examined a number of experts and recognized authorities in their own fields of study. He conducted his examination with no religious bias, other than his predisposition to atheism. Remarkably, after compiling and critically examining the evidence for himself, Strobel became a Christian. Stunned by his findings, he organized the evidence into a book he entitled, The Case for Christ, which has won the Gold Medallion Book Award for excellence. Strobel asks one thing of each reader - remain unbiased in your examination of the evidence. In the end, judge the evidence for yourself, acting as the lone juror in the case for Christ.





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on Sep 13, 2003


what about other nettlesome issues and questions from the heart that hinder the approach to God of a skeptic, the approach to God even of one already convinced of the hard evidences like Strobel—whose minds refuse to fully believe until their souls are fully convinced? Issues like: What about the horrors in this world that seem to say a loving God doesn’t exist? What about hell and unanswered prayers? What about evil—where does it come from if a good God oversees the world? If God is responsible for the church why has it been hypocritical and brutal through the ages? If God is moral then what about the slaughter of children in the Old Testament that he condones?

Like other skeptics, Strobel determined he needed answers to persuade his intellect and convince his soul before he would be satisfied. In the same way that he investigated and sought out the answers for the evidences for Jesus in his first book, Strobel’s search for satisfying answers for this book took him from coast to coast, from lofty classrooms of Ivy League philosophers to the seedy hole-in-the-wall offices of ministries to street kids, from brilliant and degree-laden theologians to the private anguish of hurting people who know pain and suffering firsthand. Strobel once again makes the journey to determine whether the issues of the skeptics and doubts of the heart destroy the solid reasons he had found for Christianity. Or confirm it.





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on Sep 13, 2003
If you are really wondering, pondering, debating these issues in your own life, I strongly recommend these books. The guy that authored these books sounds exactly like a lot of your posts. He did not believe in a God(s) The God, or any type of religious association period. He was as a reporter for the Chicago Tribune and an avowed atheist that he first investigated the greatest news story of all--the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Now, in The Case for Christ, he presents compelling evidence and expert testimony for the claims of Christianity. As a seasoned journalist with a Yale law background, He systematically tracks down his leads and asks the blunt, tough questions readers themselves would want to ask--questions that can make or break the Christian faith. He refuses contrived, simplistic answers. Instead, he pieces together hard facts through interviews with the most educated top scolars known. I think it will really be worth your while....what your outcome may be. Not trying to push on anybody, just wanted to share with fellow skinners cause I Love ya guys and gals.



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on Sep 13, 2003
For an excellent read on Bible authorship I recommend the classic on the subject, Who Wrote The Bible by Friedman.



on Sep 13, 2003



"My own view on religion is that of Lucretius. I regard it as a disease born of fear and as a source of untold misery to the human race. I cannot, however, deny that it has made some contributions to civilization. It helped in early days to fix the calendar, and it caused Egyptian priests to chronicle eclipses with such care that in time they became able to predict them. These two services I am prepared to acknowledge, but I do not know of any others."

--Bertrand Russell

My views precisely.
on Sep 13, 2003
motion, why dont you give them a link to "the bible for dummies"
on Sep 13, 2003
Well, here is what I think, from the scientific point of view, from the common reason point view, creation is utterly absurde and insult to one'inteligence. The Universe is cca 12-15 bilion years old, Earth cca 4,5, homosapiens evolved cca 1 milion years ago and a mith of God cca 5.000 tears ago.So just a simple question - Why is it that God waited, say 12 bilion years to give a Jesus? If God is omnicence, than by definition, he new that Adam and Eve would commit a crime by picking the famous aple and he didnot stoped them to do that. On the contrary, he let tham commit a sin, usually refered to as EASTERN SIN only to punish the whole humanity with a certain death.
This story is so insulting, that if nothing else ( but there is much more ),I would NEVER,EVER accept such kind of God. To beleive in any God, one must volunterely suspend his or her own common sense and live a life on dogmas and blind faith.Statistics says that in the name of Jesus,Alah,Buda or any selfproclamide divinity, more people were killed in the course of the history than for all other causes together.Why would any sane person believe in anything that is beyond any common reason, without a shread of evidence to support religious beleives? Someone has putit nicely : Absence of evidence is evidence of absence ".
By expressing my personal view of Religion I have no intention to offend those who are belivers. I am a Atheist and a commited democrat
on Sep 13, 2003
Some gathered and random thoughts from Kona:

First of all i read in Bible (yes i stronly believe in it) that if I am persucuted or put down for being a Christian I shall have a place in heaven.

Some of the posts here could be seem as put downs to Christians. Saying there is no God is just plain otright blasphemy. To those who do not believe: open your eyes.

For the day shall come when every mouth shall confess and knee shall bow that Jesus is your Lord and God.

When that day comes I will be laughing at those who said there is no God!

I still say Creation has evidence: the bible. Some of you choose not to believe the bible's accounts because of stupid reasons like "It was written by Men"

Anyways....
on Sep 13, 2003

The ethos of Religion has been corrupted to serve the arrogance of those in history demanding power and control over others.

Religion 'may' be the 'opiate of the masses'....but it's also the rallying point for generations of dissent and conflict as one flavour demands its place in dominance over other 'flavours' of the same animal.

Organised Religion is little different from organised militia or even gang-mentality.

Belief in something beyond the tangible, in whatever name is what it WAS all about...but sadly most people have lost the point, preferring to treat Religion like their football codes.

 

Personally, Religion sucks lemons in its current gestation/s and I refuse to be either a sheep OR a lemming.

I'll answer to MY maker in the way it is supposed to be.....one on one....

on Sep 13, 2003
"When that day comes I will be laughing at those who said there is no God!"


How very christian of you Kona.
[Message Edited]
on Sep 13, 2003
thank you!
on Sep 13, 2003
Please understand that I did not say that I do not believe in God. That will always remain private. What I did say was that I don't believe in the need for religion, organized or otherwise. That is all. I was baptized a Christian. I married a Jewish woman. When both religions said we could not do that, that is when I told them to go......
[Message Edited]
on Sep 13, 2003
I should have said I shall be rejoicing to finally meet my maker and be sad that others have not.
on Sep 13, 2003
Kona ,how would you treat all the people who were raised under a different religeon ,who never heard of christ until they were already firmly established in their own beliefs.In their mind,asking them to believe in christ would be like asking YOU to deny christ.Something you would probably never do.Why would you or even God(especially God) condemn such a person for holding onto their beliefs.Too many problems with a single religeon claiming exclusive knowledge of the truth.
on Sep 13, 2003

#13  by  Kona0197 - 9/13/2003 6:04:31 PM
The hell with that. You pick california you stay there. We people in Oregon don't like Californian people moving here!

And this is how you act............  thumping the Bible in here, acting like this in another thread......
it's so typical .................





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