(careful now, we don't want to call Godwin on this thread )

scientific discovery ran amuck unchecked in nazi germany.

Nope, idiocy ran amok in nazi Germany. Apart from some work in jets and the V2 (which was actually more along the lines of engineering), there was little *true* science under the auspices of the Nazi party (and what there was, was pretty much in spite of the party). Experimentation may have run amuck, but very little, if any, of it was actually scientific.

Science and technology are, in and of themselves, neutral. Good and bad are done by Man.

If a person kills another with a hammer, there is nothing evil about the hammer, only the wielder.

I would also argue that the quotes you make describing 'scientific facts' from the Bible are much more likely to be merely observations. There certainly isn't any text that indicates a detailed, accurate understanding of those observations. Additionally, there are alternate interpretations for many of those quotations (which I've heard from various clergy).

Either way, we still get down to interpretation.

Once a foolish man spoke out of turn and claimed the Earth was in fact not the center of the solar system, that everything revolved around the Sun, silly man, they almost killed him for it, them being the church ad him to be killed for speaking with a heretics tounge...

Thats interesting you should mention that IPlural, Im reading a book about that person/incident right now... Its entitled: 'Galileo's Mistake'. I highly reccomend it.

recommend*

The point is though, God plays absolutely no part in children learning morals. I'm not saying that a person can develop morals spontaneously, I'm just saying that the influence of God is irrelevant to that development.If it were true that only people who believe in God can develop morals, then surely the influence of the parents wouldn't matter either way.

"Parents are (in most cases) the ones who teach their children whats right and whats not. And where did they (The parents) learn? From their parents... and so on. Eventually you will find that religion was the source of morality. And where would religion be without God? It simply wouldnt exist.

Without God, there is no religion, without religion, there are no morals.

Nowadays we have laws to keep everyone on the (more or less) right track. These laws are based in morality. Which in turn came from religion. You will find that virtually all criminal laws in the US are based on a Judeo-Christian system of values. And I would assume that the laws of other countrys are not too much different.

You know - I have to say that I clicked on this topic thinking it would be something related to skinning! You know, about whether certain designs are a creation, or merely an evolution of an older, and the merits of each.

Oy.

2:9 "And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil."

OK, so there are two trees. So far so good.

2:16-17 "Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

....but don't eat from the Tree of Life or your dead. (Not just dead, but surely dead.) Remember this part.

3:4-5 "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

But the snake says the knowledge tree will give knowledge! A little scientific method now........

3:6 "She took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

....so at this point we would expect her to die, right? I mean that's what God said ...

3:7 "And the eyes of them both were opened"

Oops!!!! Looks to me like the serpent was right.

3:14 "And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:"

And this is the model for the creation theory??? No really??

Turns out the tree doesn't really kill you, so let's just clarify what it does do.

3:22 "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever..."

...at this point the Tree of Life is quickly uprooted and hurried away from the bad humans.

BTW, who is He talking to in this particular passage?

Without God, there is no religion, without religion, there are no morals.

So can you conclusively state, with hard scientific proof, that before we had religion there were no morals? In my opinion that's just another example of religion breeding arrogance.

Morals, or the ability to differentiate right from wrong, are developed through experimentation of how far the boundaries can be pushed before something is offensive or unappealing to the majority. Certain morals are taught through the influence of others around us, but others are learnt through experimentation. They are based upon how certain actions make us feel, whether that be mentally or physically, and are at their most basic level part of our instinctive behaviour.

To claim that the root of all morals is religion and/or God is both highly unlikely and based on nothing but arrogant speculation.
[Message Edited]

From WordNet (r) 2.0 (August 2003) :

morals
n : motivation based on ideas of right and wrong [syn: ethical
motive, ethics, morality]


Sorry, but Religion and God have nothing to do with my perspective of what is right or wrong in the least.

Bow or broil is a screwed system to base ones morals upon in my opinion...

Besides, to many people spend 6 days a week screwing over the next person in the way of what they want only to bow on Sunday and their seat in Heaven is secure for the following 6 days.

Also I heard and read claims that everyone finds religion or speaks to god facing death in the past. I find that rather presumptious, along with the claim that God is all mighty and no one can know God and yet people like to throw around what was really ment with the "Thou shalt not kill" really meaning Murder...

Hey, did everyone know that the Devil and Hell never specifically showed up in the scriptures until after many revisions....?

To claim that the root of all morals is religion and/or God is both highly unlikely and based on nothing but arrogant speculation

mmm, I've spent some time in chat with EventH and do not believe there is any arrogance in his make up. Though there is in the teaching that leads up to such a position...

"....Fundamentalists correctly perceive that universal moral standards are required for the proper functioning of society. But they erroneously believe that God is the only possible source of such standards. Philosophers as diverse as Plato, Immanuel Kant, John Stuart Mill, George Edward Moore, and John Rawls have demonstrated that it is possible to have a universal morality without God. Contrary to what the fundamentalists would have us believe, then, what our society really needs is not more religion but a richer notion of the nature of morality."

---Theodore Schick, Jr

3:22 "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever..."...at this point the Tree of Life is quickly uprooted and hurried away from the bad humans.BTW, who is He talking to in this particular passage?

He is talking to Jesus, his son, and the holy spirit. they all three are the same person, but different entities, like a shamrock.

As you walk up the steps to the Capitol Building, which houses the Supreme
Court, you can see near the top of the building a row of the world's law givers
and each one is facing one in the middle who is facing forward with a full
frontal view - it is Moses and the Ten Commandments!

As you enter the Supreme Court courtroom, the two huge oak doors have the Ten
Commandments engraved on each lower portion of each door.

As you sit inside the courtroom, you can see the wall right above where the
Supreme Court judges sit a display of the Ten Commandments!

There are Bible verses etched in stone all over the Federal Buildings and
Monuments in Washington, D.C.

James Madison, the fourth president, known as "The Father of Our
Constitution" made the following statement "We have staked the whole of all our
political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the
capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to
sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

Patrick Henry, that patriot and Founding Father of our country said, "It
cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was
founded not by religionists but by Christians.not on religions but on the Gospel of
Jesus Christ".

Every session of Congress begins with a prayer by a paid preacher.whose
salary has been paid by the taxpayer since 1777.

Fifty-two of the 55 founders of the Constitution were members of the
established orthodox churches in the colonies.

Thomas Jefferson worried about that the Courts would overstep their authority
and instead of interpreting the law would begin making law an oligarchy the
rule of few over many.

The very first Supreme Court Justice, John Jay, said, "Americans should
select and prefer Christians as their rulers."

How then, have we gotten to the point that everything we have done for 200
years in this country is now suddenly wrong and unconstitutional?

Rated PG: interesting. I didn't know that.
Well, given this new information, I think that the US should officially declare itself a Christian country and exile all the non-christians.

Witout God, America will fall apart thanks to the non belivers and those who have no faith and say there is no God. To those souls I feel sorry for you.

Every knee will bow and every tounge confess that jesus is Lord when the time comes...

Maybe then we can put this evolution BS behind us...