Religion 'should' be able to withstand mockery....it's 'supposed' to be a devotion to the almighty.

If humour at its expense is a threat to its existence/appreciation then as they say 'God help you' [and your religion'.

Besides.....everyone knows....

 

Clapton is God...

God designed us with a sense of humour, and it wasn't just so we could laugh at others. If you can't laugh at yourself (and in what you believe), then as Jafo says, 'God help you'.

r3fr,

You're confusing a dictionary definition (that may include archaic and / or early usage) with what actually exists (or at least what actually is stated in current theory).

If you want to understand (even as much as possible) where the energy content of vacuum comes from, you'll have to get involved with quantum physics. For some first order information, just do a search on zero point fluctuations or on the Casimir effect (ignore the results which claim that these are possible sources of unlimited energy, etc. it doesn't work like *that*).

There's nothing magical about it, it's a consequence of behaviour at the quantum mechanical level.

Ok, why doesn't anyone believe me when I say slavery is ok under the Bible???

I can't find the verse, someone help me out here.

And as far as the Earth being flat well for thousands of years it was believed to be so and the Church believed it. I do not recall any religion recorded in history who said, "Hey, look at this verse in the Bible is clearly states the Earth is round." I am sure it would have been mentioned because they would have been burned at the stake.



All of this is from my group of acknowledged people who have concluded this for centuries. They can't be wrong. God wouldn't allow it.




So clearly, the Earth is flat and slavery is allowed. God created everything, steps in to make sure the scripture is correct and is a human looking supreme being.


Good. I am glad this is settled.
(The person who created this thread must be confused about these issues)

Reading comprehension in this country is sooooo low. Can't understand what's right in front of you.

SINNERS!!!




So Bakerstreet, is the reason why you feel that God can exist is because we define God as this humanoid being? More like what I was writing before about God being some sort of Vacuum type being?

It would also stand under scrutiny that we can still be "in His likeness" because it is not about actually 'looks' or 'looking like', but more about chemical composition, mathematical frame work and elemental design.

As human beings we have many similarities to the Sun that are inside of us. It could be said, in a cosmos/universal setting, we are in the likeness of the Sun because of those elements.

I'm saying I believe in creation and I believe my religion is correct in how the creation took place. I don't have the viewpoints of other religions, because I believe they are false. So I must say that my religion is correct. This is why I post Scriptures, to back up my claims and to show you that what I'm saying comes from the Bible.

So you refuse to actually do any research into the other religions because you feel that they are false?

Is that the basis of understanding something? To refuse to look at it because its false without going into it? You have no questions to your own religion as to why one can read the same verse in the Bible and come to a totally different conclusion?


To me, you are not really trying to seek the True answer. You have settled on one answer that suits you.

I do not propose that science is the True answer. I use it as a reference and to help make some decisions. The Bible as well also, while to me holds more value, I use as a reference and guide but I do not pretend that I nor my church understand everything in it no matter how much we try.

This doctrine of man is misleading. Anyone who disagrees with you is following a doctrine of man? I am sure some Muslims and Jewish people feel the same way.

Infidel.

Oh and I think there are a few billion people who read the Bible. I am sure allot of them really wanted to understand it and follow it.

There is no amazement on finding someone who believes what you do without being a JW, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist or what ever. while there can me many interpretations of the Bible it will most likely be within some sort or range where it is possible to find someone like minded on specific issues.

The only reason why I comment on you posts basically because I think it is evidence of how human beings interpret evidence scientific or otherwise.

Some how God being right translates to a human being right on its interpretation of God's right-ness.

Thou Shall not Kill (but its ok when defending yourself??? but I am still killing and so on). Blood eating... (cannibalism? eating people? no blood transfusions???)







Lets do an experiment (where is Doreen???)

If you have a church, go to it and ask the pastor where it says blood transfusions are bad and you shouldn't do it. (r3fr, post the Biblical reference to not using blood transfusions)

Lets see how many use the same references as well as r3fr's to come to their conclusion.

No doctrines or ad ons. Just the current Bible. Try to stick with the King James Version but others are acceptable (what there are other versions of the English translation of the Bible? How is that possible???)

Those possibilities are possible in religions today. But, of course, not in mine. Yes, like the congergations of old (see the letters to the seven congergations in Revelation), some false teaching have crept into our religion. We used to allow smoking (2 Cor. 7:1), we used to celebrate holidays (Colossians 2:22), we even used to join the army (John 17:16; Romans 12:10), but only to be medics

I can't help myself!!!!


So there is a point where something was ok IN YOUR RELIGION that was later recalled.


But this somehow will not happen anymore because... Why?

R3fr:

"But that which is self-assembling came from something else. And do you think it just started to assemble itself, by itself? Why is the sky blue? Why is the water blue? Why aren't we evolving? Why are there male and female? Wait, HOW are there male and female?"

You realize that these are High School biology/chemistry questions, right? It amazes me that you could be so completely unread and still hope to make some sort of argument that would sway anyone. I don't fault you for not knowing, but I think you lack a bit of humility to try and disprove things you have never even bothered to familiarize yourself with. As I suggested earlier, perhaps you should learn something about the topic before you try and debate its value.

Anyway, you have reached the point now that you are ignoring who is on which side. I'm not an Atheist, and like I told you previously, I spent the majority of my time in this silly discussion trying to make Atheists see that Evolution and Creation can co-exist.

...then you come along, willing away any amount of reason that is thrown at you. You spout Biblical jargon, paste watchtower doctrine, refuse to accept anything but scriptural 'truth', and pretty much behave *exactly* like an Atheist would predict a 'Christian' would act. Thanks heaps.

If I am irritated, it is because people like you and the rest of your cult do more damage to the concept of 'God' and 'Creation' than an army of Atheists could. People go away from discussions like this with no urge to consider religion, because invariably there are a couple of caricatures extolling their own ignorance and condemning everything outside their scope. According to my word count, you spent 2664 words in that last post, and very, very little was regarding Evolution. Please, PLEASE, take off your 'witnessing' hat.

**

If the powers that be wanna keep this train wreck on-topic, please deal with the proselyting that is going on. Cult doctrine just screams for an equally verbose counter-balance. For everyone that posts here, there are many more that read it. On the off chance a single person might be drawn to R3fr's foolishness, someone should prevent this from being a platform.

Sorry, I feel strongly about cults.

Joe: "So Bakerstreet, is the reason why you feel that God can exist is because we define God as this humanoid being?"

At the most basic, I feel that God can exist because we can't prove the opposite. Branching up from there, I think that mankind has an innate sense of the 'spiritual'. Jafo says we created God, and to a point it could be said that we created many definitions of God. I think it is a lot like the Platonic Ideals. We create fallible examples, but they are just symbols, models of the Truth; the prototype that we sense inside but just can't put our finger on.

There is a story from the Decameron that I like, and that sums up my attitude.

It is about a Jew being questioned by the Islamic Sultan, who asks which of the 'big three' religions is most authentic. He figures he'll get an wrong answer and then he can lop off his head and take his money. The Jew answers with a story. A rich man is going to die, and in his family there is a tradition of leaving a ring of great history and value to the son that most pleases the father. This particular father, though, has three sons, all of equal honor. To remedy the situation, he has two perfect replicas made, and gives each of his sons a ring. After his death they find that they all have a ring, and that since no one can tell the real from the false they have to share the inheritance.

I would take it a step further and say that all 'rings', every individual's concept of God, are genuine; but each are specific, fallible points of view with only hints of truth. If you refined all the concepts of God, taking out all the unnecessary anthropomorphisms and human flaws, you would probably get a good idea of the reality. I think God is both personal and universal in that way, and that is why we are drawn toward religion. Sadly, people abuse it and force their own concepts on others, making them out to be 'Truth'.

That's just my opinion, though.

Baker...sadly the only person who is incapable of recognising a 'cult' is the member of one.

What is MORE sad is that to many, Jehovah's Witnesses are considered a cult, but those same people do not realize that Roman Catholicism is also a 'cult', as is Protestantism, or Judaism, or any other flavour one would care to mention....including atheism.

The issue anyone 'should' have with any version of 'cult', however extreme or mainstream is that it should not impinge upon the rights and values of any other faction.

Remember that one alleged manic cult JW proponent 'may' be spouting propaganda verging on fatuous tripe, but then so does self-proclaimed God-followers such as Kona, or the rabid atheist damning all to 'hell [?]' for being so stupid as to believe in ANYTHING they cannot see, taste, or touch.

JW's follower's preachings can be ignored and dismissed for no direct personal value or followed avidly by all who hear....such is the tenets of 'free opinion' [not 'free speech'].

Personally I'd prefer that the copy-paste of slabs of any version of the bible would cease.....may [your] God help us if it violates copyright....

Baker

Couldn't that be said of science and evolution?


And where is paxx?? I would love to here what he has to say about all this. Particularly about the "thou Shall not Kill" statement.


I can see this being a positive discussion on which one is more valid, evolution or creation, but we have to try to avoid absolutes mainly because there are not many to begin with (many as in single digits many)

It is amazing to me how humans (including myself) have the ability to attribute things to try to explain something. Then there is also a tendency to over simplify AND a tendency (animistic I believe) to make things 100% safe/unsafe and understandable. We HAVE to know what is around us to feel secure.


So Aleatoric:

Do you believe the world is flat and slavery is ok? The Bible says so and according to some studies (scientific mind you) says that people of color are just not smart. I think it was done in the 1940's or something.

To think at one time we thought all of this was wrong. How primitive.

Are you willing to die for your family? Are you willing to die for what you believe?

Yes, but you are not the one dying. Theres a differnece between letting yourself get killed for a *just* cause and killing someone else for an *unjust* cause.

This is the main means of all cults to control. -Envelop the lives of members.-Make the members reliant on the church for 'fellowship'. -Give the church authority control over the spiritual afterlife of members.-Make it their sole authority, over and above 'earthly' powers. -Once they have become totally spiritually dependent, threaten to 'shun' (isolate) them if they don't fall into line.

I think these points are very true but does not a cult make.

Very close to one though. VERY close indeed.

To me what would make it a cult is he want an willingness to outright say that

1)
People not within this belief system are condemned and are not to be addressed as human beings

2)
Encourage total isolation from others (in other words r3fr would not be able to post here) except to preach/teach in a controlled setting along side ANOTHER believer.


So I don't see the name being used for JW any different than calling roman Catholics (or Catholics in general), Protestant's or Jewish faiths a cult. JW has way more 'values' and practices (much of which you pointed out Bakerstreet) of control then others and is bordering on cult status.

I say again, looking at Organizational Behavior you can see allot of social behaviors that are actually negative to emotional growth.








In other words you can call it a cult, but actually it is only very close to being one technically, according to studies of human behavior and sociology.


[Message Edited]

What is MORE sad is that to many, Jehovah's Witnesses are considered a cult, but those same people do not realize that Roman Catholicism is also a 'cult', as is Protestantism, or Judaism, or any other flavor one would care to mention....including atheism.

religion in and of itself is a cult by definition sad to say...

I apologies for the long cut and paste but someone else has already typed it and frankly I do not have it in me to elucidate on a personal stance about it.....

jafo said it best, those that thump any form of dogma either for or against the existence are in fact a cult.

Why do you think it is so freaking hard to come up with a definition for Terrorism and Terrorist? If we define it for a select group we find all forms of government fall into the grouping.

Know what when I die I hope there is a God because I want to nail it's but down and have it answer some really hard questions and then it can send me to the 9 circles of damnation and into the pit of total despair....

Meanings of the Word CULT There is no generally accepted, single, current definition for the word "cult," or for many other religious terms. This leads to confusion over the meanings of certain religious terms, such as Christian, cult hell, heaven, occult, Paganism, salvation, Witch, Witchcraft, Unitarian, Universalism, Voodoo, etc. A reader must often look at the context in which the word is used in order to guess at the intent of the writer. In the newsgroup alt.usage.english, terms like this one are often called "skunk words." They have varied meanings to different people. In fact, they have so many meanings that they often cause misunderstandings wherever they are used. Unfortunately, most people do not know this, and naturally assume that the meaning that they have been taught is the universal definition of the term. The term "Unitarian" is a good example: Pre-1776 CE: Belief in a single God and the rejection of the Christian concept of the Trinity. Post-1776: A creed less, dogma-free religious organization. The Unitarian Universalized Association, (UUA) is an association of Unitarian groups. Utter confusion reigns when an author is using one definition of "Unitarian," while a reader assumes the other meaning. Misunderstandings also happen when an author assumes that both definitions refer to the same organization or belief. Perhaps the most confusing and dangerous religious term is "Cult". The word is derived from the Latin noun "cultus" which is related to the Latin verb "colere" which means "to worship or give reverence to a deity." Thus, in its original meaning, the term "cult" can be applied to any group of religious believers: Southern Baptists or Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses or Catholics, Hindus or Muslims. However, the term has since been assigned at least 7 new and very different meanings. The original meaning of "cult" remains positive; later definitions are neutral, negative, or extremely negative: Positive Meaning: Theological usage: Oxford English Dictionary defined "cult" as: "worship; reverential homage rendered to a divine being or beings" "a particular form or system of religious worship; especially in reference to its external rites and ceremonies" devotion or homage to a particular person or thing." This is the historical meaning of the word, but is rarely today heard outside of religious circles. A reference to the "Cult of Mary" appeared in a newspaper report on the Pope's 1999 visit to the Americas. It simply means that the Pope devotes special attention to the Virgin Mary. Neutral Meanings: Sociological usage: A small religious group that exists in a state of tension with the predominant religion. Hinduism might be considered a cult in North America; Christianity might be considered a cult in India. Additional sociological usage: An innovative, fervent religious group, as contrasted with more established and conventional sects and denominations. The Observer: An English newspaper seemed to use the term to refer to any small religious group, no matter what its age or teachings. 1 General religious usage: A small, recently created, religious organization which is often headed by a single charismatic leader and is viewed as an spiritually innovative group. A cult in this sense may simply be a new religious movement on its way to becoming a denomination. The Christian religion, as it existed in 30 CE might be considered a cult involving one leader and 12 or 70 devoted followers. The Mormon denomination was started in the 19 Th century by Joseph Smith and a few followers; it later grew to become an established denomination. Negative Meanings: Evangelical Christian and Counter-Cult Movement usage: Any religious group which accepts most but not all of the historical Christian doctrines (the divinity of Jesus, virgin birth, the Trinity, salvation, etc.). The implication is that the cult's theology is invalid; they teach heresy. Under this definition, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormons), Unification Church and Jehovah's Witnesses to be cults. But they would not classify Wicca as such, because it is not associated with Christianity. The earliest use of this meaning of the word "Cult" is believed to be a 1938 book "The Chaos of the Cults" by J.K. VanBaalen. On the other hand, new religious groups such as the Mormons, Unification Church and Jehovah's Witnesses generally regard themselves to be the true Christian church. They view all other denominations as being in error. Thus, one groups true church is another group's cult. Fundamentalist Christian usage: Some Fundamentalists would accept the Evangelical definition of cult defined above. Others might brand any religious group which deviates from historical Protestant Christian beliefs as a cult. This definition would include the Mormon Church, Wicca, mainline and liberal Christian denominations, Islam, Hinduism, and all of the other religions of the world. Over 70% of humanity would belong to cults, by this definition. Mental Health Groups and anti-cult movement usage: A small number of therapists, research psychologists, self-taught individuals, etc., form the anti-cult movement (ACM) They attempt to raise public consciousness about what they see as dangerous and authoritarian mind control cults and doomsday cults. Many do not care about the faith group's theology. They target only what they see as deceptive practices, and dangerous psychological pressure techniques, such as brainwashing. The ACM appears to hold opinions about the effectiveness of brainwashing that are not shared by the mental-health community generally. They see mind control/doomsday cults as a widespread social problem. Very negative meaning: Popular, media usage: (very negative meaning) a small, evil religious group, often with a single charismatic leader, which engages in brainwashing and other mind control techniques, believes that the end of the world is imminent, and collects large amounts of weaponry in preparation for a massive war. Often used as a synonym for mind control religious group or for doomsday cult. The earliest use of this meaning of the word is believed to have been in a 1965 book by Walter Martin "The Kingdom of the Cults" (revised and expanded in 1985). We have seen "cult" used to refer to Evangelical denominations, the Roman Catholic Church, Unification Church, Church of Scientology, United Church of Christ, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Wiccans, other Neopagans and many other faith groups. The term is essentially meaningless. Recommended use of the term "cult": In 1998-MAY, the Associated Press decided to avoid the use of the word "cult" because it had acquired a pejorative aura; they have since given preference to the term "sect." In 1990-FEB, an editorial by Terry Muck in Christianity Today -- the largest Evangelical magazine in the U.S. -- recommended that Christians should avoid using the word. He cited three reasons: "The spirit of fair play suggests it is best to refer to groups of people as they refer to themselves." "There is also a theological reason for avoiding [the label, for it wrongly implies that certain sinners] are the worst kind." "It simply does not work well to use disparaging terms to describe the people whom we hope will come to faith in Christ.... In fact, we are commanded to love them as ourselves." We recommend that the word "cult" be rarely used. We recommend: Using a term such as "new religious movement," "alternative religious movement," "emergent religion or faith group." These terms are more precise and have not (yet) been burdened by so many negative connotations, as has "cult." Using a term such as "heretical" or "spiritual counterfeit" to describe a faith group with whom you disagree on theological grounds. An even better usage is to simply refer to the group by its name. Of course, if you are an author, public speaker or teleminister who wants to direct public fear and hatred against a new religious group, then "cult" is an ideal word to use. But the use of the term may be irresponsible and immoral, depending upon your system of values. We suspect, but cannot prove, that some Internet web sites, including many: Counter-cult groups -- those who mainly attack Christian denominations and sects which promote novel beliefs, and Anti-cult groups -- those who attack high-intensity new religious movements which require a strong commitment from their members, intentionally use the term "cult" for manipulative purposes. They hope that their visitors will bring with them fear and loathing of dangerous faith groups, like the former Branch Davidians or Heaven's Gate, and transfer these negative feelings to such denominations as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the Jehovah's Witnesses. This web site normally refers only to "doomsday faith groups" as "cults." We feel that use of the word "cult" without careful definition in advance leads to confusion and misunderstanding. Meaning of the word DENOMINATION A Denomination is an established religious group, which has usually been in existence for many years and has geographically widespread membership. It typically unites a group of individual congregations into a single administrative body. Denominations differ greatly in the sharing of power between individual congregations and the central authority. Baptist churches have historically allowed individual churches to hold diverse beliefs. (An exception is the Southern Baptists Convention who reversed centuries of tradition and expelled some congregations over the homosexual issue.) Other denominations centralize authority, and allow congregations little freedom to deviate in beliefs or policies. Meaning of the word SECT A Sect is a small religious group that is an offshoot of an established religion or denomination. It holds most beliefs in common with its religion of origin, but has a number of novel concepts which differentiate them from that religion. Many religions started as Sects. One well-known example was the Nazarenes. This was an reform movement within Judaism formed by Jesus' apostles after the execution of Jesus circa 30 CE They were largely dispersed or killed some four decades later when the Romans attacked Jerusalem and destroyed the temple. Perhaps the most obvious North American example of a sect that evolved into a denomination is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the Mormons. Their founder, Joseph Smith, had a revelation from God that the ministry of Jesus Christ continued after his crucifixion, as described in what is now called the Book of Mormon. The Mormon sect has since evolved into the Mormon denomination of Christianity with the passage of time and the gathering of increasing numbers of followers. Within a few decades, it is expected to become the dominant faith group in the American west. When statehood was being considered for Utah, a major impediment was the beliefs and practices in the Church regarding polygamy. Shortly after a new revelation from God banned the practice, statehood was granted. This caused a number of small sects to break away from the established church, in order to allow their male followers to continue to have multiple wives. Some of these sects continue to this day in the United States and Canada, although they have been excommunicated by the main Mormon Church. A similar crisis occurred in the mid 1970's when a new revelation from God abolished the church's institutionalized discrimination against Afro-Americans. This time, the membership accepted the new ruling; there were no breakaway sects. Sects can therefore be considered a normal mechanism by which new religious movements are generated. Most sects die out quickly; others linger; still others grow and evolve in to a new established religious movement and are properly called denominations. There remains a negative connotation for many people to the word sect; they would much rather refer to their faith group as a denomination. Reference: An English newspaper, the Observer maintained a page dealing with what they call "cults". Unfortunately, they mixed together a variety of new religious groups, dangerous life threatening cults and small established faith groups. The only common factor among the faith groups that they describe is that they are all small in membership. Many of their essays were not particularly accurate. They were at: http://www.guardian.co.uk/observer/cults/a-z-cults/index.html Unfortunately, this link appears to now be dead. their web site was once a useful example of the misuse of a emotionally biased word to raise public fear and hatred against benign religious groups. Copyright © 1996 to 2003 incl. by Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance Latest update: 2003-APR-8 Author: B.A. Robinson

[Message Edited]

Yeah EventHorizon, I found that statement interesting too. I remember the statement relating to a family member's child. Your the adult and you decide to forgo the transfusion even though at the time of emergency or what have you, it is the only option available to keep them alive.


Despite that possible scenario, r3fr has avoided to specifically answer that question; instead referring back to an individual choice method relating to oneself as opposed to who you are caring for.


I think most people admitted that there is a possibility that they are a group of trusted people they believe in can get it wrong. At this point we should be discussing the possibilities of each and what it could mean.