Creation vs. Evolution

Published on September 11, 2003 By grayhaze In WinCustomize Talk

I thought I'd pre-empt this discussion before Kona's comment in the other thread sparked it off there. There is concrete proof that we evolved, but no proof that we were created. What's you're opinion, and why?

To quote Phoebe from Friends: "I guess the real question is who put those fossils there and why?"

Comments (Page 2)

IPlural

on Sep 11, 2003

Death Insurance has many riders...

Religion is not Science just as Creation does not equate Evolution the models do not mix.

One has evidence you can hold in your hand and the other has, what, a book of Myth and Mythology?

anyway...

won't go there any further...

Politics I can just allow myself to take part in, but religion is one best kept to myself.

The Rated PG

on Sep 11, 2003

The battle lines have been drawn, and the enemy appears to be winning.
Many Christians who claim to believe the Bible seem willing to allow modern scientific theories to replace the Genesis account of creation.

But that compromise is a dangerous one. Genesis 1-3 contains the foundation of every doctrine essential to the Christian faith. Discount or discard the creation account, and you’ve undermined the foundation of Christianity and the gospel.

In The Battle for the Beginning, John MacArthur explores the creation-evolution debate, and most important, walks you step by step through the Bible’s own account of the origin of the universe. Thoroughly researched, well documented, and easy to read, this new volume tackles the tough questions and equips you to face the battle being waged inside and outside the church.

John’s series The Battle for the Beginning points out many inconsistencies in the theory of evolution. So why do so many believe in it? What is the real reason?
The explosion in scientific exploration is revealing more about our universe than we’ve ever known. And with the evidence clearly “telling out the glory of God” (Psalm 19:1), we ought to be more certain than any of our forebears about the infinite power and wisdom of the Creator.

Science has uncovered whole wondrous worlds in nature that previous generations never knew existed. The more we see of creation, the more it reveals the order and the wisdom and the goodness of the One who designed it all and spoke it into existence.

But at the same time science is learning all of this, scientific theory is becoming increasingly atheistic. Incredibly, as the power, sophistication, and harmony of the universe come more and more to light, many modern scientists try all the more desperately to explain away the notion of a divine Creator who rules the universe. Why? Why do they suppose such an ordered, systematic creation is the result of mere chance?

Scripture has the answer. Romans one informs us that unbelievers will devise systems of thought to suppress the truth about God from their consciences.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools. (Romans 1:18-22)

When men and women refuse God, they become enslaved to sin, enveloped in darkness, entrapped by futility. Forsaking God, they forsake truth, light, and eternal life. And so evolutionary atheism is nothing more than a product of their futile speculation, a weak attempt to deafen the din of an accusing conscience.

What resources did John consult when he preached his series The Battle for the Beginning?
A number of listeners have asked this question. We were curious to know too, so we did some research. Here’s what we found:

A Commentary on the Book of Genesis, Part One, From Adam to Noah, by Umberto Cassuto (Magnes Press, Hebrew University: Jerusalem, 1978).

Creation and Change, by Douglas F. Kelly (Christian Focus: Fearn, Ross-shire, U.K., 1997).

Creation Evangelism for the New Millennium, by Ken Ham (Master Books: Green Forest, Ark., 1999).

The Creation of Life, by A. E. Wilder-Smith (The World for Today: Costa Mesa, Cal., 1970).

Darwin on Trial, by Philip Johnson (InterVarsity: Downers Grove, Ill., 1993).

Genesis for Today, by Andy McIntosh (Day One: Epsom, England, 1997).

The Genesis Record, by Henry M. Morris (Creation Life: San Diego, 1976).

In the Beginning, by Walt Brown (Center for Scientific Creation: Phoenix) 1995.

It’s A Young World After All, by Paul D. Ackerman (Baker: Grand Rapids, 1986).

The Long War Against God, by Henry M. Morris (Baker, Grand Rapids, 1989).

Reason in the Balance, by Philip Johnson (InterVarsity: Downers Grove, Ill., 1995).

The Scientific Alternative to Neo-Darwinian Evolutionary Theory, by A. E. Wilder-Smith (The World for Today: Costa Mesa, Cal., 1987).

[Message Edited]

DavidK

on Sep 11, 2003

In Genesis there's a story of creation, including the creation of man. The original Hebrew Bible says the Elohim (gods, plural) made man in "their" likeness. This has bothered everyone for millennia since the Nicean Council was clear that the interpretation was to be that "God" not "the gods" created man. In the last few decades several archaeological finds have added to what we know of this story. Much of Biblical history was considered myth by scholars (just like most ancient texts) until many of the cities mentioned in the Old Testament were discovered to be real.

The really astounding discovery was the Sumerian culture unearthed in what is now Iraq, in the Mesopotamian valley where it was always thought Eden existed. The Sumerian's culture peaked around 6,000 years ago, a thousand years before our previous age for the dawn of civilization. They not only had very advanced mathematics, astronomy, social order/laws, building etc, they had writing. Printing even, using their cuneiform script they left tens of thousands of books and records, preserved on clay tablets or the copper cylinders used to make them.

The story of Genesis it turns out was handed down from the Sumerians. They had exactly the same story except for one difference, the Sumerian version had far more detail. The Sumerian culture was bequeathed to mankind from their masters, the Anunaki. The Anunaki, "those who from heaven came", were the people the Bible referred to as Elohim. It was the Anunaki, who had been on the Earth for 450,000 years mining gold and other minerals, who created man. They made man in their own likeness by taking existing hominids (Cro Magnon, Neanderthal?) and creating a hybrid, clone-like version using their own DNA. The story exactly follows the Biblical version, just adding a lot more details. After centuries of man serving the Anunaki in the mines and their farms the human species was granted their freedom and a culture, passed on by their creators.

The discovery of these texts which pre-date the Bible texts by 2,000 years has caused only a minor ripple across theological and academic circles. The reason being the 'scholars' mostly refuse to acknowledge them in spite of excellent translations and the continuity from Sumer through the Akadian and later Babylonian cultures. Sumer, although it was the earliest culture we know of, predating the Egyptian Pharoes by a thousand years, had a map of the solar system which included all the planets, including Pluto which we only discovered in the twentieth century. They describe Uranus and Neptune perfectly, a feat we couldn't do before the last several decades. Most intriguing of all, they numbered the planets starting from the outer one, Pluto. Earth was the 7th planet, Mars the 6th and so on - Pluto being the 1st planet.

The existence of these books has been an embarrassment to modern historians and theologians because they challenge almost all of our previously held beliefs about the rise of civilization. The Greeks for example had their pantheon of gods and their incredible culture which it now seems was not only heavily influenced, but probably descended from the Sumerians. The war in Iraq unfortunately saw the loss of thousands (almost all) of these records, most of which were not yet cataloged or translated. Mankind's origins and history remain puzzling to the world, shrouded in the debate between murky mythology and scientific observation and theory. The lack of an evolutionary step from primitive man to modern man still dogs the fight between creation and evolution. The Sumerian accounts of our early history are rich with answers to all the questions and explain with simple clarity the 'creation' of man to both the Biblical and evolution camps. We were created by the Elohim, just as the Bible said, and it was the evolutionary material of the Earth plus the DNA of the gods that was used in our creation.

The Anunaki worshiped a single God, a God of all creation. The humans that shared their world revered them as gods starting with the Babylonians. Previously, the Sumerians knew them as their masters, their rulers and their teachers, those who from heaven came.

DavidK

on Sep 11, 2003

probably should've stuck that in a blog... sorry it's so long, I tried to keep it short

IPlural

on Sep 11, 2003

Thoroughly researched

Really?

----------------------------------
creation myth
Encyclopædia Britannica Article

Article Index Entry
E-mail this article Print this article Cite this article

also called cosmogonic myth philosophical and theological elaboration of the primal myth of creation within a religious community. The term myth here refers to the imaginative expression in narrative form of what is experienced or apprehended as basic reality (see also myth). The term creation refers to the beginning of things, whether by the will and act of a transcendent being, by emanation…

http://search.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=117208&tocid=0&query=myth&ct=

Sugaree

on Sep 11, 2003

I have no problem believing in both. I wonder why so many people have to have it one way or the other

Zodiaq~

on Sep 11, 2003

David...Thanks for that

Do you have a recommended read for some of this? Very fascinating stuff

Doreen

on Sep 11, 2003

well according to the Bible (which I think is our readme .txt)
He is a very jealous God China

Doreen

on Sep 11, 2003

but most of us always want to create our own "comfortable" Gods

Phoon

on Sep 11, 2003

Kona,
I as well support the creation point of view. I think it is completely assenine that a student can be expeled from school for toting a bible, yet another is free to carry a smut magazine around with little more than a slap on the wrist as punishment.
-----------
Although, I can agree with Hus on the religion issue. I believe in God, but I do not believe in "religion", as it has become nothing but political hypocrisy. (Look at the latest Catholic events)
Also, your timeline is skewed. If you examine the generations from Adam to Noah, you see that the average lifespan in the beginning was 900 years, however if my math is correct, Adam was still alive when Methusulah ( Noah's grandfather) was born. Total time from Adam to the flood was approx 1000 years. I would have to see more detail to see where you come up with only 15000 years.
Here is another one to think about.
If you see a star in the sky, that is only 1 light year away, you are seeing that star as it were 1 year ago... correct (since it takes that light 1 year to reach you eyes). Our planet is about 25,000 light years away from the edge of the milky way galaxy. Since we have seen objects outside the milky way, we could safely assume that the earth is at least 25,000 years old (assuming that the earth existed as long as the milky way galaxy, which would be true according to creation). The farthest known object, a quasar, is estimated at a distance of about 10 billion light years.
We don't even know what lies beyond that, because that light has not reached us yet.
So now, the question is, is it safe to assume that Adam existed 10 billion years ago?
This is doubtful, but God created man on the 6th day... and if God's timeline is as you say, then it is quite possible for 1 day, in the beginning, to have lasted for billions of years, during which time, some evolutionary processes were occuring.
In any event.. God started it... and God will finish it.

IPlural

on Sep 11, 2003

China, same here...

It isn't that I believe in both, I do not know that making a distinction is paramount to anything other than debunking the oppsite.

Though I do admit dogma is what seems to be the key thing driving one side. Frankly if someone wants their child emursed in dogma, send them to a religious based school.

That is the reality behind the push to make Creation the accepted norm from what I can see from reading up on it and listening to those supporting it on the Idiotbox.

"If you teach in Evolution Public Schools you have to teach Creation"
But in order to teach Creation you have to teach dogma and religion.

My adult children made their own choice in beliefs and my daughter who is 8 will make her own.

The Rated PG

on Sep 11, 2003

If you see a star in the sky, that is only 1 light year away, you are seeing that star as it were 1 year ago... correct (since it takes that light 1 year to reach you eyes). Our planet is about 25,000 light years away from the edge of the milky way galaxy. Since we have seen objects outside the milky way, we could safely assume that the earth is at least 25,000 years old (assuming that the earth existed as long as the milky way galaxy, which would be true according to creation). The farthest known object, a quasar, is estimated at a distance of about 10 billion light years. We don't even know what lies beyond that, because that light has not reached us yet. So now, the question is, is it safe to assume that Adam existed 10 billion years ago?

God created all do you doubt he could cause light to shine throught the galaxy instantaneously instead of mere man's decision on the speed of light years? God is outside of time and still beyond our understanding.

The Rated PG

on Sep 11, 2003

[Message Edited]

DavidK

on Sep 11, 2003

Zodiaq~ -

Zacharia Sitchen is the most well known (and controversial) translator of Sumerian texts. He's writen about a dozen books which are the best researched works I've found. I'd recomend starting with either Genesis Revisited or the first book, The 12th Planet. Sitchen has done an unbelievable job of following the cultural influences around the world and through time, as well as providing extraordinary insight into the original writings. It's so compelling that it's addictive, I've read all his books except his latest which Alexandrie tells me is the best.

Jim Marrs' book Rule By Secrecy traces the lineage of kings and secret societies from the beginnings of the Anunaki's grant of kingship to mankind to the present, with some surprising revelations. He has a chapter that gives an excellent synopsis on our origins in Sumer.

Styl-X Design

on Sep 11, 2003

kona, I should try to forget the 12-15000 years, no offence but that isn't correct and thats a FACT

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