I guess to some degree that I could be categorized as a rationalist. I'm certainly not an atheist.

I do have a tendency to believe that anything that truly exists can be demonstrated empirically, and it can be argued that God does indeed fall in the category of being ultimately provable.

Even so, I don't think that even if we could prove His existence, that it would answer all that many questions. Even if we had clear, concrete proof of God, there would still remain many of the ethical questions that we currently face, such as 'why were we created?', and 'if God does care for his creation, why then is there pain and suffering?', among others.

I am most definitely not a biblical literalist. I think the Bible has inestimable value as a source of guidance and history. But I don't want to limit God by trying to hold Him within a book.

Kona, I don't deny the possibility that there is a God. As I've said already a few times, I don't believe there is a God, but I still admit there is a possibility that there is a God, somewhere, somehow.  The thing I am sure about is that all religions are crap, manmade, with the sole purpose of taking advantage of gulable people. Cherish your God, but be independant about it. Don't rely on some other mortal who claims to speak the words of God, cause he's lying to you. Just let it be between you and your God.
Maybe there is a God. But if there is one indeed, I'm sure that it's the very same one for everybody. Buddha, Yaveh, Jehovah, God, Jesus, Allah, Zeus, Jupiter, ... If there is a God, they probably are all the same guy.  Don't rely on a book written by man, just think for yourself and feel for yourself. Develop your own intimate relationship with your God.

I'm not anti-God. I know some very peacefull people whom I love dearly who have a beautifull relationship with their God. I personally don't believe in it. But I don't deny that their belief is beautiful.  But religion is not beautiful. Religion is ugly. Religion is all about power, control and money.

and 'if God does care for his creation, why then is there pain and suffering?',

‘Earthquake Claims 10,000 in India.’ ‘Thousands Perish in Bangladesh’s Flood.’ Tragedy is constantly in the news, including large-scale, ‘senseless’ disasters that snuff out the lives of thousands, such as the terrorist attacks on New York’s World Trade Center. Nor is tragedy confined to today—it wasn’t too long ago that an evil regime wiped out 6 million Jews and many others. In addition to the headline events, each of us suffers pain at one time or another—illness, headaches, accidents and death. It’s not surprising, when the burdens become too great, that people cry out to God in anguish, ‘Why don’t you do anything? Don’t you care?’

How can an all-powerful, loving God allow suffering?
As the shock of each traumatic event subsides, people begin asking why such things occur. Reading about past wars or visiting memorials like the Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C., inevitably raises the same question, ‘How can there be a loving God controlling the universe in the light of such death and suffering?’How can an all-powerful, loving God allow suffering?

interesting read beware it is long http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/death_suffering.asp?vPrint=1

How can an all-powerful, loving God allow suffering?

population control.

Actually, I have my own thoughts about those questions, and I think that there's a greater purpose than the simple accounting of numbers. I truly believe that those kind of events are necessary for our overall growth as intelligent beings.

My point was that even if God came to earth, waved at us, and said 'Here I am!', and then left, those questions would still remain.

Merely proving the existence of God (assuming it's even possible to do so), wouldn't necessarily solve everything else.

The thing I am sure about is that all religions are crap, manmade, with the sole purpose of taking advantage of gulable people

But religion is not beautiful. Religion is ugly. Religion is all about power, control and money.

It is true that man has used religion for political gain. Hitler had "God with us" engraved on the belts of Nazi soldiers. America said, "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition." The law may even allow you to start the Christian Nazi Party, if you so desire. You can become a "reverend" for a few dollars through the tabloid classifieds and then further your political agenda with the world's blessing, no matter how much it smears the name of Christ. If Jesus told His followers to love their enemies, and someone puts a knife into someone's back in the name of Christianity, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that something isn't quite right. If we human beings can detect it, how much more will God? He will deal with it on Judgment Day.

TheRatedPG,

Your link was interesting. I personally have a problem with the idea that we are made to suffer as punishment for the sin of Adam. A just God isn't going to blame (or punish) the son for the sins of the father.

Here's another religious perspective on that concept:

http://www.gospeltruth.net/menbornsinners/mbs07.htm

http://aca.mq.edu.au/PaulDavies/Multiverse_StanfordUniv_March2003.pdf

Many other interesting links by this scientist.

It is possible to get highly intricate order out of chaos under the right conditions - is life the spreme strange attractor?

by the way chris TH. When providing links, it is better to provide a page rather than an instant download. That way people who are not familiar with computers are not confused or possibilities of downloading virus. Thanks though

#472 by Aleatoric - 9/18/2003 8:30:04 PM

I personally have a problem with the idea that we are made to suffer as punishment for the sin of Adam. A just God isn't going to blame (or punish) the son for the sins of the father.

you are right in thinking that, however the only thing as a result of the first sin was the inevitablity of death. We are not being punished for what Adam did(sin)(Eve did it first remember) Adam could have told Eve no. His choice. (It boggles the mind that it was only one rule and we couldn't even keep from not doing that) We ourselves bear full responsibility for our own decisions to sin. And all evil in the universe emanates from the afteraffects of what we have chosen to do/done. Childlike a little fib, a little white lie, that get's bigger and bigger with each lie that is told to cover the other up. Speaking of children, unborn, babies, and those unable to intellectually understand. They have the ability to sin just as Adam or anyone else, if they die they're not punished because of What their parents did? Scripture is clear that children and the unborn have original sin-including both the propensity to sin as well as the inherent guilt of original sin. But could it be that somehow Christ's atonement did pay for the guilt for these helpless ones throughout all time? Yes, and therefore it is a credible assumption that a child who dies at an age too young to have made a conscious, willful rejection of Jesus Christ will be taken free from punishment to heaven.

If "God" is so great, why would he need to give us a book to tell us how to live? Wouldn't we be born with such knowledge? Why would we have to be taught about "God". The spirituality of native American Indians is amazing, and they don't require a "book". *But* they do have a lot of folklore that is handed down from generation to generation (If you put that folklore in a book, you would have the equivalent of the bible, but in Native American Indian terms.)

Maybe it didn't work. Being born with it would just make it too easy.

a book is one way. just one. you can look at a rock, water, mules, peaches, trees, grapes, and so on and get the same infomation.

I just confused myself.

While surfing the web I found an interesting web page which you may find interesting.

David Bohm was a friend of Einstein, worked with Oppenheimer, worked at the Radiation Laboratory during WW2 and wrote books like "Quantum Theory", "Causality and Chance in Modern Physics" and "The Special Theory of Relativity". In short he was one of the most brilliant theoretical physicists of our era. He not only had a great interest in quantum mechanics, but also in philosophy. In his later work this became more and more prominent. Bohm was actually very involved in matters like truth, order, existence and eternity. And he interconnected matters like these in his other scientific work.

Have a look at http://www.bbk.ac.uk/lib/bohm.html .

Kona....if 'God' loved me as much as you say he loves you, he would have made you a better speller.....

Yeah I agree with that...my spelling sucks.