... well, I don't know about yall, but I am ready to go out and catch a movie.

I've been dieing to see "Fighting Temptations" for a week now.

to me, this thread was a pretty nice discussion. It even brought out Bakerstreet to post.

You can't get a better debate when paxx and Bakerstreet come on.

Paxx: what i was saying was not necessarily for you to begin with. There are a class of people here telling Kona that he is stupid for staking his spiritual life on some "book". Those same people are using as their evidence both for what they believe and against what kona believes things that they themselves know only from books.

Hitler and people who espoused his philosophy had scientific documentation for almost everything they believed, much of which touched upon the scientific fields we are discussing. Now, they are considered evil. "Because a Scientist says so." is enough to make an informed *personal* decision, but I look pretty derisively on all these people quoting high-end Anthropologists and then making fun of Kona's blind "faith". They are relying it as well. They are placing as much faith in the people who taught them Evolution as Kona is in the Bible.

Tolkien never asserted that Middle Earth was real. Science continually asserts "truths" that later have to be revised or completely discarded. I have no problem placing my faith in Science, but I'm not gonna pretend I am any more accurate quantitatively as to my beliefs than the average Scientologist.

BakerStreet,

I agree that it is wrong to call someone stupid (or imply it) because they place faith in the bible. Nor am I arguing any such position in my defenses of science and evolution (not sure if I would be included in the class of people to which you allude, but I'll respond anyway ). As I've stated before, I believe in God as well, and that is clearly a matter of faith, and as a result, I have respect for the faith of others as well ( I don't believe in the same fashion as others, but that does not diminish my respect for their faith).

That said, it is disingenous to argue that faith in the bible and faith in science are equally interpretable.

While there is a fair body of historical and archaelogical evidence for many of the events in the bible, the fundamental precept of the purpose of the bible is that God exists and has set the text as rules for life. The thing is that the matter of God is ENTIRELY a matter of faith. God is not a provable (or disprovable concept).

Science, on the other hand, is predicated entirely on the concept that the things that it examines can be observed, hypothesized about, supported or not, and so on.

The primary difference is that if someone makes a claim to me about science (whether personally, or in a book), I can, at least IN PRINCIPLE, duplicate the effort or experiments or theories that they did (or claim to hold true), and verify or not the specific results that are presented. I can then make an empirical judgement of the accuracy of their claims.

Where God is concerned, there is no such recourse. Any statement or text that is produced to support any given claim to God's will can be equally used to make a different claim, or some other statement or text can be produced that can make a different claim (and that is only within the bible, let alone if we include the religious texts of all faiths).
There is no other recourse but to use faith, exclusively, as a test for my understanding of God.

That science contains many subjects that are replete with individual interpretations of evidence, and that have no clear cut process that can be used to substantiate, as a whole, the subject of those interpretations, I won't deny.

However, the body of science is subject to the premise that there is a process that can be performed by independent parties and the results of that process can be clearly and independently determined to conform or not conform to the claims presented. God can only be a matter of faith, at least in our current level of understanding.

God and science are two different things, and are not in conflict. God is the creator of the universe and architect of our being. He presents us with an environment in which there are mysteries to explore and puzzles to solve, and He gave us minds that are designed to desire the exploration of those mysteries. He gave us the ability to design and use tools in our efforts to examine and understand the world around us. Science is one of those tools. Just as our use of hammers and drills and computers does not engender the same kind of faith tht we have in God, neither does our use of science correspond to the same level of faith.

It all comes down to what you hold as truth, which is sujective to say the least.

Aleatoric :

"I can, at least IN PRINCIPLE, duplicate the effort or experiments or theories that they did (or claim to hold true), and verify or not the specific results that are presented."

At one time, perhaps. I would have to disagree though in terms most modern science. I don't think even the principle is there anymore. Something as broad as evolutionary theory relies upon enormous amounts of coordinated work by diverse fields and previous findings far removed in time from the researcher. You rely upon the honesty of other researchers, the provenance of bones and artifacts, even the cleanliness of the lab used for genetic testing or carbon dating. There are controls and procedures, but in the end every layer of complexity you add tends to add more fallibility, instead of more reliability, in the results. Even as a researcher, you have a high level of uncertainty. Occam's Razor wouldn't know where to start.

In terms of the poor guy reading a high-school textbook, re-interpreted by non-scientists and taught by someone with a degree in education, he might as well be reading the Kabbala. Faith is all he is gonna have. Such are most of us. Scientists in our society are like high priests in the Old Testament. They go into the hidden tabernacle and bring out truths, and we live by them as far as faith allows. Sure, it may well be they saw revelations in the petri dish, but the vast majority of people are never going to 'know' one way or the other. For many that faith is perilous, especially now that most science has become marketable, and the results are bankrolled by private, biased industry. Mistakes can easily kill the people who have have no choice but to accept the findings blindly.

As far as "if I would be included in the class of people to which you allude" No, i don't. I've found your posts very objective.

**

I consider myself a skeptic, but I disdain the nihilistic attitude I see here and elsewhere that skepticism is somehow a tool of destruction. I do not subscribe to the Skeptical Enquirer . I find that most people that call themselves 'skeptics' are at least as full of 'A Priori' knowledge as UFO hunters and 'paranormal investigators'. They tend to disbelieve anything they can't get a quorum of tenured faculty to agree on, and take scientific findings with little or no... skepticism? Funny, that. A noted Skeptic I know has a 'baloney detector' that he likes to cart around. Of course he, personally, decides when it goes off, since he can't carry a boatload of researchers with him. So much for skepticism.

I don't think my skepticism will lead me to a belief or disbelief in anything, that isn't what it is for. The final result of all skepticism, to me, is the knowledge that "I don't know for sure, and apparently neither do you". For me, to smite Kona's belief in God goes against the spirit of both Science and skepticism. To do so I would have to have as much faith in the totality of my understanding as he places in God. You can say "I don't have to know everything to know that God doesn't exist." but, actually, you do. If there is anything at all you don't know about, it could be God.

I have enjoyed reading Paxx's, Aleatoric's, and many other's posts, but to be honest some others here have really surprised me with their blindness, even bitterness. I would expect much more from people who claim to embrace scientific thought and who seem to shun blind faith.
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h'uh?



what they said...

Aleatoric you say science can semi prove things and w/ God you cannot prove anything I don't know anything or how this really all works but one thing I do know is we will "never" know for sure until it is over for us...

I don't like sharing things such as this but here goes:

I currently have not one but two sick relatives right now that may or may not be soon finding out the answers to some of our questions since they both have been told they are terminal and will die.

One is still in the process of going through alot of things and he has accepted this and his fate (though me and the rest of my family have not)

The other relative is currently in the ICU and only 27 yo, he ended up unexpededly and I was called to the hospital to say my goodbyes to him from the rest of the family as the Doctors told them nothing can be done, brain scans reveal he is almost gone there, and the respiratory is doing 100% of his breathing and all organs and digestions has stopped so they stopped feedings and are simply waiting for his heart now to stop...

I went to the ICU last week and "seen" what I believed was a 99% corpse in front of my eyes his skin was white w/ bruises where the IV's run and his body felt like ice and was hard. his chest only moving up and down from the breathing machine, I spoke w/ his nurse and she said to make a long story short "this is it, nothing can be done it's over for him"

His Doctor who looks to be from India told my family they did everything and just pray? (I wondered what God they pray to?)

Anyways, I went into the ICU and figured why not? so I layed my hands on his head and he twitched (scared the hell out of me so I called the nurse who said it was his nerves) after she left I held his hand (was hard and cold and felt dead)
It twitched, freaked me out! but I prayed and said inside "God reveal yourself by healing Gabriel show his mother who is making his funeral arrangements, show his nurse, show is Doctor that you exist"

two days later he pulled his tubes out and they had to sedate him and he is getting a Trach done to make him more comfortable today I think it will be done today yesterday they were suppose to but did not for some reason w/ the schedule.

He is breathing though still on the machine he is only half assisted now, they have begun feedings his organs are beginning to work, kidneys are producing output and digestion is working and bowel output, his blood count is moving up and his eyes are opening his color is back and his skin is not hard like before...

Do I know what happened for sure? No! The Doctors don't know what happened either, I only know I prayed and I "think" God heard and revealed himself but I'm human so I myself fight in my mind was it God or did the Doctors make a mistake?

I don't know! (This scares me sometimes when God does reveal) I don't think we can handle seeing him...

Sorry you guys I prob should not have posted that, but I did, so those of you laughing (your welcome)

Those of you that believe that there is something else please pray for Gabriel and my step father (I'd appreciate it)

I found out they did the Trach at 6:00 but his mouth will not close (whatever that means I guess cuz of the tube he had for too long) anyways I'm going to go visit him today. I only know one thing right now that I don't "know" still if he will leave that hospital or not alive (so please pray it might help)

I wanted to just say to those that read this I'm not a nut (maybe a lil) hehe
my relationship w/ God has always been strange cuz I can never explain things right, but I think of myself as a disobedient daughter who is playing russian roulette w/ him and I tend to joke and mock him and he tends to slap me around alot having the last laugh. Why he has not struck me down yet I don't know?
I've seen him reveal himself in a few ways such as I described above during my life but I run around doubting and knowing both at the same time (does that make sense)

bottom line is we won't know anything until it's over but the debates will continue I guess until the end, who knows?

BakerStreet,

Thanks for the response, well said as always

Unfortunately, I do have to agree that we have created a class of people who will believe anything just because someone tells them to (whether scientific or religious, etc.).

Virtually all of the systems we use to educate have been distilled down to merely a parade of facts or directives, often with little behind them to give reason and context. What we aren't doing enough of is teaching people how to *think*. We're only teaching them how to remember.

I think to some degree, what I try to do in my life (and in these posts), is to try to get people to actually think about what they invest themselves in, and why. You won't always find a clear cut answer or set of facts, but you may progress beyond the mere acceptance of the word of some 'authority'.

Doreen,

My heart (and prayers) go out to you and yours. It's always hard to watch when those you love go through such things.

I don't think your viewpoint is weird. One of my best friends has what seems to be a very similar viewpoint.

I, myself, have witnessed events such as you speak of where the prayers or presence or touch of someone sparks a change in those situtations. The scientist in me tends to think that these events can be explained scientifically, and it is possible that they can, but they are obviously outside of scientific scope for now. Events like these are also part of the reason I have faith, because they indicate that there is a subtle, and perhaps even purposeful, interrelationship between us all.


I think the two sides of my personality (science and God), go a long way toward keeping me honest with myself about both.
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Didn't You here this

https://www.wincustomize.com/msgboard.asp?BID=WC&id=191641

Thank you Aleatoric (I appreciate that)
my touch had nothing to do w/ it, I only described what happened, the reaction to my touch that the nurse said was just his nerves made "me think" he was not quite as gone as they said cuz he responded to stimuli... so I figured at that point why not pray like the doctor said? and I already told you guys the rest...

he looked good today, still in ICU still heavily sedated and still they are not sure what is going on or whether he will fully recover or not, but he is still here and moving in the right direction towards recovery as far as we can tell

Doreen, there are things that happens that medicine cannot yet explain. Maybe it's God, or maybe it's not. I knew a woman who had cancer and doctors didn't give her 6 months to live. She had two yound children, around 2 and 4. Well, she said, there is no way I can die, I have two children who need me.  She died when they got 18 and 20.  She was athiest, so it's not prayers. But I believe that the brain has powers that science hasn't discovered yet.

Bakerstreet: yes, I will agree with you to one point. I think that some people NEED to believe in something. In the old days, people turned to priests and God, and now it seems that doctors and science have replaced them. There is indeed blind faith in the "white coat" people. For some reason, if you say you're a doctor, everybody suddently listens to you, as if you were more believable that somebody else. Just look at commercials. Fake doctors and fake scientists all the time saying that Asperin is better, or Advil, or Benedril, or whatever. If a doctors says that it's good, then it must be, right?
A shame. Apparently a lot of people have difficulty trying to forge their own opinion and they need a beleivable person to guide them, weather it's a priest or a doctor...

Paxxy maybe ppl do need to believe in something as you said, I myself would rather think that after we die it's over and we can just finally get some much needed rest when life is finished w/ us...

http://channels.netscape.com/ns/news/package.jsp?name=fte/biblicaltunnel/biblicaltunnel

The tunnel might be true. Not a story to help guide some one.

If there is a Heaven as so many feel exists, I hope it is more along the lines of the movie "What dreams may come"...

Better than bow or broil....

enlightenment...




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