I reverted to the use of the word 'Christian' because that is the primary religion that I have had such non-discussions with. To be honest, I don't even know the difference between the various types of Christian, and find the fact that the existance of different 'versions' of Christianity only compounds my belief that they are wrong. Surely if they know the absolute truth and there is no room for debate, then everyone would hold exactly the same beliefs.

I'm also not referring to fundamentalists. I'm referring to ordinary 'everyday' Christians who have 'found God'. They are the ones who would argue that if you even accepted the possibility of an alternative to God or creation, then you're not a Christian anyway.

I have to admit that the handful of believers who have admitted the remote possibility of the non-existance of God in this thread are the first i have ever found. The actual number in proportion to the participants in this discussion is minimal though, so are not in any way representative of the majority.

Greyhaze:

To be honest, I don't even know the difference between the various types of Christian, and find the fact...

-You'd need to know what people believe to judge them based upon their beliefs. Most flavors of Christianity are not biblical literalist, nor do they claim to know 'the absolute truth', and most readily accept debate.

I'm also not referring to fundamentalists. I'm referring to ordinary...

-Actually Fundamentalists are the *only* people you are referring to, perhaps because of a lack of familiarity of anything else. People who believe in Adam and Eve as the literal progenitors of the human race, and that every word of the the Bible is unquestionably true are the smallest sliver of Christianity, and definitely Fundamentalist ( These words aren't arbitrary: http://www.webster.com/home.htm ).

I have to admit that the handful of believers who have admitted the remote possibility of the non-existence of God in this thread are the first i have ever found.

This is where I start doubting your original intent in starting the thread to begin with. We aren't debating the existence or non-existence of God , or are we? The topic is Creation Vs Evolution. There is no specific requirement on either side in terms of the belief in a Supreme Being. You can't suppose, or impose, one because you have examples here of people who most certainly believe in God and also have no problems with Evolution.

The only way you can produce a handful of people as you describe is if you also impose an agnostic/atheistic requirement on them, which I think was your intention to begin with. The vast majority of people with spiritual beliefs on this thread have said they have no problem with Evolution as a method of Creation. If you are trying to draw out 'believers' to heckle, fine, but it doesn't prove anything.

No offense, but you are publically slamming religion without knowing much about it, and using Evolution, a debate with no religious requirement, to instigate it. Even more, you are only using one flavor of one religion to do it. I can't even get you to acknowledge the presence of any religion other that Christianity.

Hate to burst your bubble, but many of your 'scientists' group are people with a well-defined religion and idea of a Creator. I think that is something you have a hard time fathoming, and can only come to terms with by learning about religion and dealing with your aptitude to lump people into groups of 'us and them'.

Well someone's clearly been reading an entirely different thread...

Christian simply means "Christ like" some ppl call themselves Christian cuz "other" ppl want to know what category they fit into when asked during conversation regarding God.
but it does not mean they are actually into that so called "Religion" it's just a title to satisfy others?

A relationship w/ God should be one on one, I don't know why everyone seems to get so lost trying to figure this out you don't "need" to really be called anything or belong to a group of anything, the Churches are merely there to "try to assist" in teaching for those that need it, but then ppl get so wrapped up in the "names of things and the Churches" they lose site of "God" it's so sad...

and since we are human and sin, when you call yourself by a title and mess up then oh boy you've misrepresented God and that gives others an "Excuse" or way out to deny or accept that there is a God (they love having this excuse cuz it satisfies their conscience...

I don't know... I think anyone who reads the Bible literally (as in word for word) will have a problem.

From what I have found, firstly, different languages words mean different things, so to take the Bible literally would mean to understand the original written language, its context and current meanings of the time.

In other words, Thou Shall Not Kill could mean a few things depending on the original language.

Also I might add that reading comprehension requires the understanding and context of a whole paragraph (the sentences before and afterward) of which you are quoting. So you could technically take one sentence literally but it will more that likely be out of context.


The Bible for me is not a rule book; it is a guide book. And as with all guide books it is open to interpretation. I would call myself Christian who believes in God and I can also fully see how Creation and Evolution fits into all of this.

I do have to agree that the church and many leaders do not recognize Evolution and many of the church going do not believe it but do recognize it is a possibility

I think when it all comes down to it we are the victims of our own interpretations (Perceptions, Settings, Perceived) and attributions (Attribution Theory and Halo Effects).


To trap yourself in one meaning without investigating it for yourself and questioning it every so often means that you are trapped in a meaning instead of a truth.

So would it be true that creation is a theory? I believe in a Higher Power but the bottom line still comes down to that either way you want to go it is a belief. A sum of works based on someone elses work. I have never read the Bible in its original form, has anyone here?

Yes, I guess you can say so. But I believe it to be fact, I can "see" God. We can see him, not in a literal sense, but a sense of discernment. We can see or discern God's invisible qualities by means of his creations. (Romans 1:20)

"A sum of works based on someone elses work."
Are you talking about the Bible here?

I've not read the Bible in its original form, simply because I cant read Hebrew, though there are some Bibles in Hebrew at the local book store. Another reason, other than not knowing Hebrew, is because theres not a exact translation for some words, but the feeling can still be captured, and thats what matters.

By the way, 1914 is the beginning of what according to the Bible? Not do dismiss that but I really thought I heard something similar about: The year 2000 WWII The Civil War The Year 1000 The Black Death HIV/AIDS And other stuff. No offense but it would seem that then end is near depends on who your asking.

1914 marked the beginning of the Lord's day. 1914 also marked a beginning of "pangs of distress." Matthew 24:3-14 The year 2000, wwii, cival war, ect.. people thought that these dates might mark the end of the world, but no one knows the exact date when all wicked will be destroyed, except for God.

None taken. True, many people have different opinions and have had different opinions as to when the end will come, but nobody knows for sure. It will come as "a thief in the night." "Whenever it is that they are saying 'Peace and security!' then sudden destruction is to be instantly upon them just as the pang of distress upon a pregnant woman; and they will by no means escape." (1 Thessalonians 5:2, 3) "Thief in the night" meaning it will be sudden. People will be about their normal business and not even know its coming.

"I still hold out hope that one day I'll be able to sit down with a Christian and hear something from them that will allow me to understand their way of thinking without them giving the impression that they've been brainwashed."

I can see how you may think that some religions brainwash their believers. Sadly, this may be true too. A lot of people who claim to be christain, catholic, jew, ect.., don't even read the Bible. They just accept whatever their preacher, pope, whatever, says. Even some preachers and popes may not read the Bible. So, in a way, they might be called brainwashed. But as for the true religion, shouldn't they all think the same thing? I mean, about the Bible, shouldn't they all be in agreement? In unity? There is but one way to worship God. Only one true religion. Ephesians 4:5, (also 13) read: "5. one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6. one God and Father of all [persons]..."
Notice verse 6 dispels the belief of a trinity.

I reverted to the use of the word 'Christian' because that is the primary religion that I have had such non-discussions with. To be honest, I don't even know the difference between the various types of Christian, and find the fact that the existance of different 'versions' of Christianity only compounds my belief that they are wrong. Surely if they know the absolute truth and there is no room for debate, then everyone would hold exactly the same beliefs.

Sadly, the majority of religions are wrong in their beliefs. One of the most popular things is the belief in the trinity, or the use of the 'cross' in their worship. What most people don't know about the cross, is that its a phallic symbol. A phallic symbol is the male sex organ. A lot of churches have it atop their steple (spelling) directing it toward God... how nice. Romans used to worship the god of sex. The 'cross' even dates back to ancient Babylon and Egypt, long before the death of Jesus. And the trinity dates back to ancient Babylon also, I think. "‘You must not make a carved image or a form like anything in the heavens, on the earth, or in the waters under the earth, nor are you to bow down to or serve them.’ This prohibition is underscored with the declaration: “Because I Jehovah your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion. Ex 20:4-6." There are also many holidays that have pagan backgrounds, such as easter which is the Roman holiday where they worshipped the god of fertility, hence the rabbits and the eggs.

A relationship w/ God should be one on one, I don't know why everyone seems to get so lost trying to figure this out you don't "need" to really be called anything or belong to a group of anything, the Churches are merely there to "try to assist" in teaching for those that need it, but then ppl get so wrapped up in the "names of things and the Churches" they lose site of "God" it's so sad...

Churches are there to be a place of congergation, fom the members to uplift each other, encouragement, and as a place of worship. (Hebrews 10:25) Though many aren't a place of encouragement. Preachers teaching that God allows a place of 'eternal pain and torment' which people call 'hell.' This belief, too, dates back to ancient pagan civilizations. Hell, hades, or gehenna are all the same. Hell was a place outside of Jerusalem, where people not fit for burial were thrown and it was kept burning with sulpher. (look up in library for more information.)

I don't know... I think anyone who reads the Bible literally (as in word for word) will have a problem. From what I have found, firstly, different languages words mean different things, so to take the Bible literally would mean to understand the original written language, its context and current meanings of the time. In other words, Thou Shall Not Kill could mean a few things depending on the original language.

Like what I said near the beginning of my post that there aren't exact translations for every word from Hebrew to English, but the feeling can be captured. As for "You must not kill." I think thats pretty accurate in translation.

"Also I might add that reading comprehension requires the understanding and context of a whole paragraph (the sentences before and afterward) of which you are quoting. So you could technically take one sentence literally but it will more that likely be out of context."

True, you can take one sentence literally and it may be out of context. To make sure of the correctness, you can always pray to God for guidence. Also, look up similar scriptures that speak of the same thing and if they're all in harmoney, there you go. We also must use our reasoning. "Does this make sense?" "Is this in harmoney with other scriptures?"

"The Bible for me is not a rule book; it is a guide book. And as with all guide books it is open to interpretation. I would call myself Christian who believes in God and I can also fully see how Creation and Evolution fits into all of this.

I do have to agree that the church and many leaders do not recognize Evolution and many of the church going do not believe it but do recognize it is a possibility

I think when it all comes down to it we are the victims of our own interpretations (Perceptions, Settings, Perceived) and attributions (Attribution Theory and Halo Effects).


To trap yourself in one meaning without investigating it for yourself and questioning it every so often means that you are trapped in a meaning instead of a truth."

As to basic Christian teachings and moral values essential to worship of God in truth, the Bible is very straightforward. It leaves no room for conflicting interpretations. In the letter to the Ephesians, Christian faith is spoken of as being “one,” showing that there were not to be several faiths. (Ephesians 4:4-6) Perhaps you may wonder, ‘If the Bible cannot rightly be interpreted in many different ways, why are there so many different “Christian” denominations?’ We find the answer if we look back to the time shortly after Jesus’ apostles had died and an apostasy from the true Christian faith had developed. Jesus foretold this apostasy in his parable of the wheat and the weeds. Jesus himself explained that “the wheat” represents true Christians; “the weeds” represent false, or apostate, Christians. “While men were sleeping,” Jesus said, an “enemy” would sow weeds in the wheat field. This sowing began after the apostles had fallen asleep in death. The parable shows that this confusing of true Christians with false would continue until “the conclusion of the system of things.” Thus, throughout the centuries, the identity of true Christians has been obscured because the religious field has been dominated by those who are merely nominal Christians. However, at “the conclusion of the system of things,” a change would occur. “The Son of man” would “send forth his angels” to separate false Christians from true Christians. This meant that the Christian congregation would then be easy to recognize, having the status it had in the apostles’ time.—Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43.

Yes, we must find out the truth. Do some research on some teachings at you place of worship. Go to a library, and be sure to have a Bible. When you find something, question your preacher or whoever and make sure he too, uses the Bible. Get proof of the teachings in the Bible. Ask yourself "Do they make sense?" "Would a loving God allow this?"

Notice verse 6 dispels the belief of a trinity.

THAT makes even me question my faith. I have always believed in a trinity.

be that as it may, I still believe in God and Jesus and am a Christian.

As for evolution, I think I can see creation and evolution happening together. After all, our life is but a wink of God's eye so who is to say that a day to God is a million years to us.

"Would a loving God allow this?"

I believe God lests bad things happen to people because they bring the bad things upon themselves by sin ect; This is a side effect of man's freewill.

again, having a relationship w/ God is spiritual and no human being will ever be able to put it into perfect words so don't expect a Bible, Pastor, or a Church to lead you directly to God's doorstep it's a journey your soul & heart lead you to.
the other stuff is merely there to "assist" you if you get wrapped up into it you'll lose site of God, you either have faith God created the earth we're floating on in his space or you believe there is no God and nothing.
we have that choice and each one of us will get our answer when our soul leaves our body one way "or" the other.

come on Baker make post #792! hehe
g'night you guys me is going to pray for some Zzzzzz tonight
[Message Edited]

I know you do not mean that children and victims bring things upon themselves. right?

Worship a cross??? You've got you facts mixed, r3fr.

Even some popes may not read the Bible.

Show me a pope who didnt read the bible and I'll show you someone from your imagination.

"one God... "

...three entities.

True, you can take one sentence literally and it may be out of context.

Exactly the problem with the 'three gods' argument.

Btw, I have no problem with God and Evolution co-existing.

Grayhaze, I can sympathize with you when you say that many 'christians' will 'regurgitate' bible verses when you question their faith.

I know you do not mean that children and victims bring things upon themselves. right?

I have to agree with IP here...

EventHorizon wonders if this thread will make it to 1000 posts...