Just like Braniac said, it would be pretty crappy if all you get is the 80 or so years you are alive on this planet. My guess is that's exactly how it is, no after-life, no heaven, no hell...just the end.

What is so wrong with the concept of 'stopping', to be non-existent? I believe that something gave me this incredible gift to be on this earth (for whatever purpose is completely beyond me). I can't emphasize how much of a gift it is. I don’t feel like I should be rewarded for receiving such a gift (by rewarded, I mean going to “heaven”) In fact I hope I cease to exist, just like any other ending.

I deplore dial up >

For r3fr, the smallest difference in scriptural interpretation turns bloodless 'devotion' into suicide or murder. A great deal hinges on paper, ink and interpretation.

Faith. We believe its the right choice. You can call our decision whatever you please, but its our decision.

Nazi scientists experimented on them with the same results. Their impassive, inflexible, and incorrect model of reality defined them instead of their humanity.

JWs were also persecuted by the Nazis, suffering the same results as the Jews, we were also persecuted greatly in the 50s, and are today in the Republic of Georgia. Some of the things they done to JWs (Purple Triangle) and Jews (Yellow star I think), and Polish were simply horrible. Killing parents in front of their children, gas chaimbers, torture and the list as we know, goes on. All for Hitler and for his 'perfect race.'

Mormons added on to the bible with the book of Mormon. It is stated in Revelation that this is a a big no-no.

But... i'm not Mormon. Catholics have done the same too. I'm not sure the 'scripture,' but they made up a verse saying that the Father, Son, and holy spirit are one being. Of course they're not which I explained earlier, but they did it to make their beliefs seem true.

Any religion that believes in babtism for the dead and 3 different heavens and the fact you can rule your own planet (as a god) is not for me. I used to dabble in the mormon church. My wife used to be a mormon until I pulled her out of it. Mormonism is a cult.

Yeah, but I don't believe any of that. I think that they also believe that all people go to heaven (to different planets too), wherein the Bible it says the wicked will be destroyed. Though I could be wrong about that belief.

I don't "think" that any of the diff Religions are cults they are simply searching for God and maybe still lost. God is not a Religion...

No, not true. One example is the incident of Haley's comet. A group of people thought that God was behind this comet or something, and so they [gruesome] cut off body parts and killed themselfs [/gruesome]. Yeah, they were cultists. Heaven's Gate suicide is what it was.

What is so wrong with the concept of 'stopping', to be non-existent? I believe that something gave me this incredible gift to be on this earth (for whatever purpose is completely beyond me). I can't emphasize how much of a gift it is. I don’t feel like I should be rewarded for receiving such a gift (by rewarded, I mean going to “heaven”) In fact I hope I cease to exist, just like any other ending.

We both know that you don't want to die. Nobody really wants to die. Even people who've attempted suicide didn't/don't want to die. We all have the will to live. To be happy. We're built to live forever, whether by evolution or creation, but somehow we die. Some say survival of the fittest, others say imperfection (oh oh, me me!). If it were survival of the fittest, how did Bill Gates get here?!? Just kidding, I like Windows... Its fast, reliable, and effective. And, if you call now, you'll get a free 'Blue Death' screen saver. Sorry. (Actually i've never gotten one of those on Windows XP.)

The Bible teaches that there are 3 places people will eventually end up. 1, heaven, but only 144,000 (kings and priests. Revelation 7:4; 14:1, 3; 20:6). 2, life on a paradise earth for a great crowd, which was Gods original purpose. (Revelation 7:9; Isaiah 11:6-9 notice too that animals will feed on straw, not in heaven, but on earth; Psalm 104:5; Ecclesiastes 1:4; Isaiah 45:18; Matthew 6:10, 33; Isaiah 55:11; Psalm 37:9-11, 29; Matthew 5:5; also, to show that this time is drawing near: “the sign” of “the last days.” Matthew 24:3-14; 2 Timothy 3:1-5; also the destruction of false religion (Great Harlet) by the nations will be a sign as well and the true religion will stand.) 3, eternal destruction, NOT, eternal torture. (Psalm 37:10; Job 24:24; Psalm 68:2; 146:4).

But... i'm not Mormon. Catholics have done the same too. I'm not sure the 'scripture,' but they made up a verse saying that the Father, Son, and holy spirit are one being. Of course they're not which I explained earlier, but they did it to make their beliefs seem true.

Ah but if you give me a few days I can dig up some verses out of the bible that say the trinty is believeable.

No, not true. One example is the incident of Haley's comet. A group of people thought that God was behind this comet or something, and so they [gruesome] cut off body parts and killed themselfs [/gruesome]. Yeah, they were cultists. Heaven's Gate suicide is what it was.
#933 by Citizen r3fr - 11/2/2003 6:19:14 PM

anddd I still stand by what I said:
they are simply searching for God and maybe still lost...

Ah but if you give me a few days I can dig up some verses out of the bible that say the trinty is believeable.

OK, but you haven't answered why you think JWs are a cult. You don't have to though, I was just curious and I though that i'd clear up any misunderstandings if any.

anddd I still stand by what I said: they are simply searching for God and maybe still lost...

Well, no, they're dead. They killed themselfs. One definition of the word 'cult' is
"A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader."

Catholics have done the same too (added books to the bible)

They have?

Hey Bakerstreet, I truely enjoy reading your posts so I hope you post again even though it is the same thing.

It also helps that I agree with what your saying... but even if I didn't you write very well.

----------------------

So, no one thinks we will have an extra finger a few thousand years from now because of that Dominate gene?



In the end its all about different points of view. Reading comprehension, human error and others will always be the bane of the truth.


GI Joe has Cobra
Superman has Doomsday
Batman has... Bane
Banking has Investment Fraud
Sugar has Spice

The list goes on...


So for those who totally believe in Creation or Evolution you have never thought that what you believe in could be wrong? Or for that matter, can only be an assumption not a ultimate truth?


I think I used this earier in this thread:

I assume my Mercedes Benz McLaren is outside. No reason to think otherwise but does it really have to be?

#937 by EventHorizon - 11/2/2003 11:00:59 PM Catholics have done the same too (added books to the bible)They have?

I have heard that but never investigated it.

OK, but you haven't answered why you think JWs are a cult. You don't have to though, I was just curious and I though that i'd clear up any misunderstandings if any.

I would have to look into JW before I say anything further.

Only reason I said anything about mormons is because my wife was one and I was one too.

Been there, done that.

No misunderstandings...

creation vs evolution, not comparing religions outside of creation, nazis, etc. I have fallen off topic as well. Lets get back to where we started.

As Science Digest reported:

"Scientists who utterly reject Evolution may be one of our fastest-growing controversial minorities... Many of the scientists supporting this position hold impressive credentials in science." 3

One example is the late Dr. Arthur E. Wilder-Smith, an honored scientist with an amazing three earned doctorates. He held many distinguished positions. 4 A former Evolutionist, Dr. Wilder-Smith debated various leading scientists on the subject throughout the world. In his opinion, the Evolution model did not fit as well with the established facts of science as did the Creation model of intelligent design.
"The Evolutionary model says that it is not necessary to assume the existence of anything, besides matter and energy, to produce life. That proposition is unscientific. We know perfectly well that if you leave matter to itself, it does not organize itself - in spite of all the efforts in recent years to prove that it does." 5
Secular researcher Richard Milton summarized the current world situation: "Darwinism has never had much appeal for science outside of the English-speaking world, and has never appealed much to the American public (although popular with the U.S. scientific establishment in the past). However, its ascendancy in science, in both Britain and America, has been waning for several decades as its grip has weakened in successive areas: geology; paleontology; embryology; comparative anatomy. Now even geneticists are beginning to have doubts. It is only in mainstream molecular biology and zoology that Darwinism retains serious enthusiastic supporters. As growing numbers of scientists begin to drift away from neo-Darwinist ideas, the revision of Darwinism at the public level is long overdue, and is a process that I believe has already started." 6

It can't really be argued that the Catholics added books to the Bible. Even though the Catholic Bible has more books (the Apocrypha), the source of those books is from the greek septuagint, which is the greek translation of the hebrew old testament that occurred from about 300-200 BCE (the name is, according to the letter of Aristeas, derived because the translation was done by 70 scholars).

The septuagint was also used by most Christian writers (including the writers of the new testament) until about 300 AD. Partly because of this early use, the Hebrews stopped using the septuagint after about 100 AD.

Once the early christians became latin speaking, the textual source for the bible was derived from Jeromes' latin translation of the Hebrew text.

The books of the Apocrypha are commonly in the eastern orthodox, and some of the sects of western Catholicism. Additionally, even the 1611 version of the King James version of the Bible included the Apocrypha.

By some arguments, it is stated that the bibles without the apocrypha have removed books from the bible. Given the history of the translations, a case can be made for both versions of that story.

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you." Deut. 4:2.

Given the history of the various translations and the canonical selection process, who can truly say which version is the unaltered version (if, in actuality, any such version exists)?

each person constructed of trillions of molecules and cells, but the human brain alone is filled with billions of cells forming trillions of trillions of connections.

The design of the human brain is truly awesome and beyond our understanding. Every cubic inch [2.54 centimeters] of the human brain contains at least 100 million nerve cells interconnected by 10 thousand miles of fibers.

It has been said that man's 3 pound brain is the most complex and orderly arrangement of matter in the entire universe! Far more complicated than any computer, the human brain is capable of storing and creatively manipulating seemingly infinite amounts of information. Its capabilities and potential stagger the imagination. The more we use it, the better it becomes.

The brain capabilities of even the smallest insects are mind-boggling. The tiny speck of a brain found in a little ant, butterfly or bee enable them not only to see, smell, taste and move, but even to fly with great precision. Butterflies routinely navigate enormous distances. Bees and ants carry on complex social organizations, building projects, and communications. These miniature brains put our computers and avionics to shame, in comparison.

The marvels of the bodies of both animals and man are evidently endless. Dr. A.E. Wilder-Smith makes this thought-provoking and humbling statement:

Imagine being given the task of constructing any living animal from scratch, using carbon, calcium, water, etc. It boggles the mind. Now imagine miniaturizing the program to grow it and run it. All the chemical information needed to construct an elephant is contained in a tiny speck (the fertilized egg cell).


"When one considers that the entire chemical information to construct a man, elephant, frog, or an orchid was compressed into two minuscule reproductive cells [sperm and egg nuclei], one can only be astounded.
In addition to this, all the information is available on the genes to repair the body (not only to construct it) when it is injured. If one were to request an engineer to accomplish this feat of information miniaturization, one would be considered fit for the psychiatric clinic."

It is certainly true that a machine carefully made by a craftsman reflects the existence of it's creator.

IPlural,

I would argue that the positional shift in the body of evolutionary (and other) scientists is more in regard to the theoretical mechanism for evolution that is the current theory, and not necessarily the fact of evolution, as a process, itself.

Also, the quote attributed to Wilder-Smith is either incorrect or taken out of context, as there are no scientific evolutionists who argue that 'matter left to itself' is the proximate cause of abiogenesis.

Regardless of the actual initial cause of life, matter was not left to itself. There was matter (atoms and molecules), energy (heat, radiation, light, etc.), motility (the atoms and molecules were in a substrate that allowed easy and substantial movement), and affinity (the tendency of atoms and molecules to combine only in certain combinations).

While I tend to lean toward an intelligent design to our universe, many of those who subscribe to what is called 'Intelligent Design' tend to have problems with consistency within their framework, even greater than any issues in the scientific theory of evolution.

There is little doubt that evolution, as a process, occurred, pretty much as the evidence indicates. What the details of that process are, and what the proximate causes are, are clearly matters of valid debate, and the theories we currently have may very well undergo substantial changes as our knowledge improves.