If you cannot understand something, make it up....

story of my life...

If God exists then you might wonder where God came from. On the other hand if there is no God then you might want to know where the universe came from. If that was a Big Bang then you wonder what came before that. There is theory that the universe expands from that point until it collapses and creates another big bang. That would solve that problem. If this goes on forever then there was no absolute creation point. So to me it looks like such a mechanism was always there.

Matthijs....yes, I agree....the big bang theory doesn't hold water unless it is actually cyclical.....any other premise makes no sense at all.....

#962 by MadIce - 11/3/2003 7:40:20 PM On the other hand if there is no God then you might want to know where the universe came from. If that was a Big Bang then you wonder what came before that.

Since in the prevailing big-bang models, space and time were created it eliminates the paradox since there was no 'before'. Time started at the big bang. Therefore if God created the Universe he/she/it exists outside of time and we have no real understanding to deal with that. It also begs the question how (even why) God can subsequently act temporally (within time) to influence human affairs.

Time (pun intended ) to re-read my Paul Davies...

the big bang theory doesn't hold water unless it is actually cyclical

Which is actually something they see indications of slowing very possible. Expansion is slowing and they question if that means it will snap back upon itself. What would the implications of that end up being

It is also kind of interesting that they have found that the missing mass in the Solar system was a big wonderment up until they noticed that every Universe has a black hole, a super massive black hole at that.

Some think that they are interconnected so that they could possibly be traveled once enough understanding allowed the technology to be created to handle the crushing forces and to break away from the gravity, unless of course where one sucks another blows

Worm holes might be a very logical explanation for faster than light travel in the distant future

Then, who knows, maybe God will show up with all their buddies and complain about there goes the neighborhood

Humans, breed like rabbits, do not even come close to the communal social structure of insects and have the life span of soap bubbles.

I know Zork! Cheap labor !!

Since in the prevailing big-bang models, space and time were created it eliminates the paradox since there was no 'before'.

Mm, time was created by human beings as a means of measurement, nothing more...

Space could very well have always been, but then again we could be nothing more than virus or bacterium like existing inside a living being.

Well, I tried to read up on this subject. It seems that the expansion of the universe is not slowing at all. It is even accelerating. In short that means that after a finite amount of time it will be ripped appart and the universe will end. This is known as the Big Rip. A name skinners will love.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerating_universe

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big Bang theory: God spoke and BANG!! it happened.

Where did God come from? No one created him, he has always been here.

Mm, time was created by human beings as a means of measurement, nothing more...

There is plenty of evidence for 'The Arrow of Time' e.g 2nd law of thermodynamics, entropy etc.

A dropped drinking glass smashed on the ground won't spontaneously reassemble itself (without a net influx of energy of some sort) yet the tendency for it to smash in the first place was all to prevalent.

The solar system (hence planets hence the earth hence life hence intelligence) developing from a cloud of gas is no violation of this either since there is a localised influx of energy (gravity->particles->friction+radioactivity->heat->light->etc) to drive the organising forces at work - at the expense of energy loss on a much more non-localised scale.

This is all (probably?) old ground discussed already...

The main attraction of the cosmological constant term is that it significantly improves the agreement between theory and observation. The most spectacular example of this is the recent effort to measure how much the expansion of the universe has changed in the last few billion years. Generically, the gravitational pull exerted by the matter in the universe slows the expansion imparted by the Big Bang. Very recently it has become practical for astronomers to observe very bright rare stars called supernova in an effort to measure how much the universal expansion has slowed over the last few billion years. Surprisingly, the results of these observations indicate that the universal expansion is speeding up, or accelerating! While these results should be considered preliminary, they raise the possibility that the universe contains a bizarre form of matter or energy that is, in effect, gravitationally repulsive. The cosmological constant is an example of this type of energy. Much work remains to elucidate this mystery!

Madice, some think along this line, NASA has some info as does MIT, Scientific America and Discover.

then others still have thoughts of the "Big Crunch"


NASA main page on Big Bang, studies
http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni/uni_101bb2.html


Below is a directory listing of Lectures U-Toronto Cosmology
Below link is a Lecture from U-Toronto, Shelton Cosmology
http://www.astro.utoronto.ca/~shelton/ast210s/lectures/HNAD_22w_s03.PDF


mmm, I have many more links if you've interest...

It does open up many other possible solutions to the question of Creation or Evolution..

Oh! Thanks.

* CLICK *

However, all of the above notwithstanding, my position is that the anthropomorphic God described in dogma was created by man. That does not argue that God does not exist, but that the God that really exists is as far beyond the dogmatic God as we as humans are beyond the simplest single celled forms of life.

This is how I felt for a long time now. Almost 4 years if I am correct.

God, as far as I have put together, is a entity that exists everywhere literally and is a part of everything. The Universe as we see it (or don't see it) is an extention/part of this entity created. Sort of like my body; I am the whole body but my mind is in my head. Anything part of 'my universe' has been drawn by me (reguardless of the fact that there is something outside of myself that formed me and directed me through DNA/RNA to develope)


In some ways, because of this, I would technically say that there is a God. We exist in this univese and therefore this universe cradles us, grew us, created or evolved us and can litterally take it away.

If I am not mistaken, this is what I have taken from ancestrial tribes showing the God as more of the holder of where they live then a human life form. If I am not mistaken most believed God was female or trans-sexual.

Anyway, I just feel at this monemnt in time that God is an entity that exists everywhere and is apart of everything. When you 'die' you just become another form or a small part of the universe. You go back to or disperse into the one body of the System to be part of other things.


Not a void. Not a Heaven full of Angels, but energy maybe with a conscience of the whole Universe now that you are 'dead' (dispersed).


Just a theory... wouldn't bet my life on it.

So you think God is Q From Star Trek???

Nah, not Q, The Prophets. After all they are non-corporeal non linear entities.

From within a linear time scale it's impossible to see any other non linear existence.

Hmmm, does this mean Ben Sisko is God???

joetheblow said: "So you think God is Q From Star Trek??? "

Isn't that pretty much what Scientologists believe? That 'God' was really aliens, and that there are good alien spirits and bad alien spirits and all that junk?

pro: http://www.scientology.org/

con: http://www.xenu.net/

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I'm sorry to again go off-topic, but this is very important to me. It is hard for me to not address what I consider to be church propaganda. R3fr has told people to look into the Jehovah's Witnesses, and has even asked that they contact members if they are interested. I think that demands a bit of balance, even if it is off-topic, because it endangers people's minds and lives.

I, too consider Jehovah's Witnesses ( http://www.watchtower.org/ ) ( http://www.watchtowerinformationservice.org/jws.htm )to be a cult.

The Jehovah's Witness hierarchy has the tools in place to punish, shun and isolate those that threaten their power, openly question doctrine, and cause 'dissent'. They are in charge of the lives of their members.

This is the main means of all cults to control.

-Envelop the lives of members.

-Make the members reliant on the church for 'fellowship'.

-Give the church authority control over the spiritual afterlife of members.

-Make it their sole authority, over and above 'earthly' powers.

-Once they have become totally spiritually dependant, threaten to 'shun' (isolate) them if they don't fall into line.

From their own site: http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/1988/4/15/article_01.htm and other examples of the JW isolation practice and 'spin': http://www.watchtowerinformationservice.org/disfellowshipping.htm

A black and white example: As a Jehovah's Witness, if the only means of saving the life of your child is a blood transfusion you must refuse. You are required to watch your child die. R3fr will call it a "personal choice", but not when you consider the methods above. Participation in the church *requires* a decision that is psychologically difficult after years of such psychological programming. As your secular and religious authority, they can shun you from family and friends, and even punish you in the afterlife. This is not a "personal choice".

In my opinion the Jehovah's Witnesses are solidly a cult.



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