sooooo everyone agrees that creation is the only way it all happened?


Good. It's settled.


Soooooo, what happens if we are wrong? And this "The Earth is round" stuff just doesn't fly with me.

How many years under the church suppossedly backed by the Bible, was the Earth said to be flat?

Thousands of years of that can't be wrong.


So, its creation and a flat Earth. Agreed?

Good.

why? What do you see that I do not? Then I would like to ask, why should I care? You have your religious beliefs and I will not single you out and vilify you for them, don't presume to do that to me for not accepting yours as my own truths and reality. Thats the point, stop preaching.

I see the fulfillment of Bible prophecy (2Peter 3:3; Matthew 24:12).

if saying the word penis will actually send ppl to hell then we're all in big trouble, I can however think of lots of other words that might qualify me though... and me will try to stay out of this thread, before I get into trouble *sigh*

No, thats the term for the male sex organ. Nothing wrong with it. There is no place of eternal suffering. The Bible says that all wicked are going to be destroyed (Psalms 37:10). There will be no demons to inflict the pain and no Satan to be the head of the demons. And God will not be head of it either, because the Scriptures say that God is a God of love (1 John 4:8; Ezekiel 33:11).

No offense but it has always been clear to me that the pressure is on you to follow the beliefs of JW. So if that is your only option to get a blood transfusion because other methods have been tried and failed or shown to not work in a particular case of the patient what do you do?

We won't take that option.

Is it really a choice? Loose the family of people you love and care for in your church? To feel shunned?

Kingdom Hall. Yes. It is our belief that we will see them again in paradise (Revelation 2:7; John 17:3; Romans 5:21; 6:23; Matthew 25:46; 1John 5:11).

I do not pretend to think that other religions do not have such 'rules' as to how to make a choice but even my friends do not have an answer for that. One in particular does not care what people think about her so her choice was easy.

Everybody cares what others think of them. Thats why she has friends.

As I have written before, the Bible seems to be interpreted in many different fashions. If you can not admit that others can not be just as passionate about how it 'should' be done and how (much like you) feel that they are right then there really isn't much to debate.

I'm sure there are others that are more passionate than I, about the Bible, but how there can be a discussion is by pointing out things that they didn't know. Such as the promised Paradise earth, or Gods name. Those two things very few people know about. Most people think that God is nameless and no distinction of other gods. Humans are called gods too. Lord is also very indistinctive and also humans are called lords as well. Whats to tell them apart? Wouldn't the most powerful being have a name for himself? And what better name than Jehovah, which means; "He Causes to Become (Pslams 87:18; Isaiah 42:8; 54:5 See also Jah and Hallelujah in dictionary)."

How exactly is there to be spiritual growth without opposing opinions?

When we go from door to door we face a lot of opposing opinions. Also, service is a great way to grow spiritually. Other ways are personal study, reading the Bible daily, family study, regularly attending meetings and Christian association.

I do not say there is any true religion but those who allow individual thought and growth without 'nagging points' or 'mental games' are usually the best.

With all the various religions teaching different things and worshipping different ways, don't you think there is a correct teaching and a correct way to worship? Do you think God intended for there to be multiple interpretations to the Bible, or just one? (Ephesians 4:5, 13. Recognized by its fruitage - Matthew 7:20)

It isn't a personal choice if you are punished for it.

OK, say I choose to take blood and I get disfellowshipped... I chose to take blood. I made a decision. Though, of course, i'd never take blood nor give blood.

If a JW takes a blood transfusion they lose their peers and possibly family.

But if they accept council from the elders and repent, they're welcome back to the congergation.

When someone is shunned by the Jehovah's Witnesses, the remaining JWs are *compelled* not to have contact, even with family. If they do, they can be shunned as well. This isn't an easy choice either when you are brainwashed.

"Bad association spoils useful habits." (1 Corithians 15:33)
No, not brainwashed. You have no clue, other than what i've told you, what goes on at the Kingdom Halls. What you've read on websites (other that the official JW) is wrong. A lie. If you attend a few meetings your viewpoint will be very different. Someone doesn't just stand up there playing a tape with backward messages, but we have various different speakers and they use the Bible numerous times to varify those teachings. Basically everyone looks up the Scriptures to see for themselves. To see what is being teached is true or not.

This is administration by isolation and fear. It is a classic example of cultish control; the main symptom of it, actually. Separate people, indoctrinate them, and then they must obey unquestioningly or face expulsion and loss of their friends and family. Shameful and sick. It prevents cultish religions from having light shed on their cultishness.

All wrong. Continous reading of those websites will lead you to that conclusion. Again, you have no idea what goes on at the meetings. We are worldwide and yet have unity and love between us all. I can go to a meeting in Britain or Australia or anywhere else and other JWs will come up to me and talk to me like they've known me my whole life (Colossians 3:14).

You said: "Thats not even a teaching of ours, the punishing in afterlife. " That's funny, too. You can't be a part of the Kingdom of God if you aren't a Jehovah's Witness, and if you do anything that goes against the teachings, you are shunned... meaning you are no longer a Jehovah's Witness. If that isn't punishment in the afterlife, what is? , gah.

It is our belief that when you die you no longer exist (Psalms 146:4), except in Gods memory. The righteous will be resurrected to a paradise earth (144,000 to heaven) and the unrighteous will be forgotten. So there will be no punishment in the afterlife, because those who've rejected God will be destroyed and the righteous will be perfect.

You have to understand that Genesis was written by people without knowlegde of the "theory" of evolution. So he is going to explain creation in terms that could be comprehended by him and the people around him. The human race and the rest of the world was not made in seven days. The theory of evolution is pretty much concrete but not all scientists have accepted it as cold, hard fact.

True, its very likely that Moses (writer of Genesis) never heard of the term, evolution, but he did know that he was inspired by God (2 Timothy 3:16). No, the earth most likely wasn't created in seven literal days. The Bible uses different lengths of time for the term 'day.' It can be a period of 1,000 years, 12 hours, 24 hours and other periods not 24 hours long. Such as Noahs day. Meaning the time he lived. Or the Day of Jehovah.

The difference, however with JW is that the adult's decision regarding transfusions 'CAN' kill their child 'un-necessarily' [quaint, that], and 'should' be classified as criminal negligence at least, and murder at best.

JW parents don't neglect their children. They want them to live. They're no different than any other parent, except in their beliefs. We believe there is a God and that putting someone elses blood into your system one way or another is against the Bible and Gods law (Genesis 9:4).

But then every cult has its foibles....cool-aide, etc....that 'attract' the disparate and desperate or like-minded followers, ultimately making THEIR Religion superior to others through personal selection [or up-bringing], nothing more.

We do not personally select people. This is best proven by our door to door work. We have no clue what kind of person will answer the door, but we still talk to them about the Bible. Also, me on this board. There are people who oppse my beliefs, but I still talk to you and am still looking for hope.

More often than not, it ends up as the blue-eyes Vs the brown-eyes...or the whites Vs the blacks...or the Catholics Vs the Protestants...or the Fascists Vs the Jews [and everyone else]...ad nauseum.

Unlike some religions, we do not select a particular race, color, eye color and so on. We believe that, as Acts 10:34, 35 says: "34. At this Peter opened his mouth and said: 'For a certainty I percieve that God is not partial, 35. but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.' " (See also Revelation 22:17; 7:9, 10) We also in every country, worldwide.

Any group, faction, religion or cult, call it what you will, that ostracises, punishes or actually hurts or allows hurt of ANY individual in its teachings/doctrine is JUST PLAIN WRONG and has lost its direction AND relevance.

If people aren't corrected, then they will continue on the wrongful course they've stumbled onto. Also, physical contact is not involved when being corrected. To get more information on our view of accepting blood you can visit http://www.watchtower.org/library/hb/index.htm?article=article_07.htm or go to www.watchtower.org , click on 'search' and type in 'blood.'

I'd rather be a member of HUMANITY than any of the Religious cults out there....and I mean EVERY SINGLE ONE of them...

1 John 5:19.

sooooo everyone agrees that creation is the only way it all happened? Good. It's settled.

Wee. I'm glad we had this discussion. You're all interesting people, even though you may have different beliefs you're all your own person.

Soooooo, what happens if we are wrong? And this "The Earth is round" stuff just doesn't fly with me. How many years under the church suppossedly backed by the Bible, was the Earth said to be flat? Thousands of years of that can't be wrong. So, its creation and a flat Earth. Agreed? Good.

Well if there was no creation, we'll just die and thats it.

The Bible never said the earth was flat.. it says just the opposite (Isaiah 40:22).

R3fr said:

"So there will be no punishment in the afterlife, because those who've rejected God will be destroyed and the righteous will be perfect."

Does anyone else see how utterly insane that statement is? I have to quote it again...

"So there will be no punishment in the afterlife because those who've rejected God will be destroyed and the righteous will be perfect."

SO with the being cast out of the community and your family, and the being destroyed for eternity part, there's no negative reinforcement for these "personal choices"? Jehovah's Witnesses have no reason to make harmful decisions when they are bleeding to death, or their children are molested? . Lies? um, yeah.

"I can go to a meeting in Britain or Australia or anywhere else and other JWs will come up to me and talk to me like they've known me my whole life "

Do you think it is easy to keep that many people that much in line, all singing the same little tune? You think people are naturally that homogeneous? Hell no, it takes cultish control to keep that kind of uniformity.

The odd thing about that website ( http://www.watchtowerinformationservice.org/ ) is that it is filled with information provided by EX-Jehovah's Witnesses. So I really don't have to "attend a few meetings", I can get the accounts of all the people that have. If that site is 'full of lies' why not have it shut down? The JW leadership has plenty of legal resources and oodles of money.

Please stop this pasting of scripture and doctrine provided to you by the Watchtower folks. We are posting our own thoughts here, not just vomiting doctrine. Your literalist sermons only prove the Atheistic point-of-view, giving them more and more examples of how destructive and illogical 'religion' can be. Feel free to talk about Evolution, but I am sick of you using it as a platform for Watchtower propaganda.



[Message Edited]

I'm still stuck on the concept/circumstance that can empower a 'religion' to legitimize reckless endangerment for the sake of dubious interpretation of an old book...a fictional tabloid of indeterminate origin.

What 'right' is inherent in an individual to determine proper care of another in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary?

A doctor doing such would face malpractise [at least].

Joe-Public would face criminal negligence [or worse].

A JW gets away with it because 'someone' had a poor understanding of written comprehension [or just swooned at the sight of blood] and factored it into his/their religious 'factionism'.

Too too bad if you are a haemophiliac.....and your mum bows and scrapes before Jehovah......

This has to be a serious turn-off in the JW recruitment success-rate....a cult based on Russian Roulette would be just as clever.

Call this a counter to the pro-JW propaganda, but without the interminable scripture-quoting [I, too, have read it already], and is a check and balance [right of reply] to demonstrate just one teensy-weensy glitch in the appeal of this 'flavour' of Religion.

Stupidity knows many forms....

No, thats the term for the male sex organ. Nothing wrong with it. There is no place of eternal suffering. The Bible says that all wicked are going to be destroyed (Psalms 37:10). There will be no demons to inflict the pain and no Satan to be the head of the demons. And God will not be head of it either, because the Scriptures say that God is a God of love (1 John 4:8; Ezekiel 33:11).
#1007 by Citizen r3fr - 11/5/2003 1:30:29 AM

ahhh me thought you were suggesting I had said the forbidden "word" hehe
anyways me needs to stay out of this thread for fear of misrepresenting God if there is a God of course right? hehe
and if you think there is no Hell well that sounds pretty comfortable but I hope you're right cuz I personally hate heat...

Dor it's only forbidden if you also include the word *strap-on*

r3fr:

JW is a cult. I can tell just by what you said here and reading the links you gave.

POINT BEING: I do not wish someone forcing scipture down my throat when I come to WC.
So knock if off OK?

BTW: if you want to get out of that religion I know some pretty good Christian outreach programs for JW/mormons. You might want to take a look at your religion and question your beliefs. After all, blind faith can be deceiving.

And there is a Hell and a enternity of punishment awaiting evildoers. Only God can say who is going to be cast to there.

You can NOT have God without having Satan. You must have the evil to have the good.

I am still completely blindsided by the line:

"So there will be no punishment in the afterlife, because those who've rejected God will be destroyed and the righteous will be perfect."

That pretty much takes the grand prize for nutty, nonsensical statements I have seen here. Kona will have a hard time beating that one...

That pretty much takes the grand prize for nutty, nonsensical statements I have seen here. Kona will have a hard time beating that one...

Actually I have a good defense. In the Bible (if you read it and believe it) It does say over and over that there is a hell. And it does say that the evildoers will burn in a flame that will last for eternity.

Even mormons believe in hell and enternal flame.

SO with the being cast out of the community and your family, and the being destroyed for eternity part, there's no negative reinforcement for these "personal choices"? Jehovah's Witnesses have no reason to make harmful decisions when they are bleeding to death, or their children are molested? . Lies? um, yeah.

I was replying to your statement of punishment in the afterlife. Yes, if you accept blood there will be consequences, but you'll not be aware of these if you're dead. Also, there have been no molestations in our Kingdom Hall. None of our speakers molesting any helpers. I have no idea where you got that from. Possibly from one of those sites?

Do you think it is easy to keep that many people that much in line, all singing the same little tune? You think people are naturally that homogeneous? Hell no, it takes cultish control to keep that kind of uniformity.

Or is it we're united in godly love?

The odd thing about that website ( Link ) is that it is filled with information provided by EX-Jehovah's Witnesses. So I really don't have to "attend a few meetings", I can get the accounts of all the people that have. If that site is 'full of lies' why not have it shut down? The JW leadership has plenty of legal resources and oodles of money.

Well, since they're ex-witnesses they obviously don't like what we teach and ex-witness tend to lie to make us look bad.

The JW organization is run completely on donations. We don't have tons of money to just spend on whatever we please. In New York at one of the printing factories we grow our own food to cut down on costs.

Please stop this pasting of scripture and doctrine provided to you by the Watchtower folks. We are posting our own thoughts here, not just vomiting doctrine. Your literalist sermons only prove the Atheistic point-of-view, giving them more and more examples of how destructive and illogical 'religion' can be. Feel free to talk about Evolution, but I am sick of you using it as a platform for Watchtower propaganda.

My typing of Scriptures helps prove that what i'm saying is in the Bible. If you don't accept it, thats your decision and I respect whichever one you make.

Yes, they can be made to be atheistic, but when read in the correct way they prove the existence of God.

A JW gets away with it because 'someone' had a poor understanding of written comprehension [or just swooned at the sight of blood] and factored it into his/their religious 'factionism'.

I think Moses got it right when he wrote it. That someone elses blood isn't to be in anothers body.

This has to be a serious turn-off in the JW recruitment success-rate....a cult based on Russian Roulette would be just as clever.

True, many people don't like the idea of not accepting blood, such as some of you on this board. Some feel very strongly about it as well, such as Baker. Its not a bad thing to want to live, but to please God and to live forever in paradise is another thing. Devotion to God is not just accepting a few things in the Bible, but accepting it all. And not only accepting them, but acting on them as well. Some people believe we are to just listen, but this is opposing to what Jesus told us to do at Matthew 28:19 : "Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit,.."

and if you think there is no Hell well that sounds pretty comfortable but I hope you're right cuz I personally hate heat...

Well i'm pretty positive there isn't a 'hell.' Some Scriptures to back up this claim are (Hell is a place of inactivity - ) Psalms 6:5; Ecclesiastes 9:10; Isaiah 38:18, 19. Also the Bible tells us that the soul is destructable and that humans and animals are both souls. (man a soul - ) Genesis 2:7; 1 Corithians 15:45; Joshua 11:11; Acts 27:37; (animals a soul - ) Numbers 31:28; Revelation 16:3; Leviticus 24:18. (soul eats, has blood, can die - ) Jeremiah 2:34; Leviticus 7:18; Ezekiel 18:4. (when people die, their life force returns to God who gave it - ) Ecclesiastes 12:7.

JW is a cult. I can tell just by what you said here and reading the links you gave. POINT BEING: I do not wish someone forcing scipture down my throat when I come to WC. So knock if off OK?

Am I forcing you to read them? If so, i'm am sorry. I don't wish people to force me to learn something I don't want to and I don't want to do it to others.

BTW: if you want to get out of that religion I know some pretty good Christian outreach programs for JW/mormons. You might want to take a look at your religion and question your beliefs. After all, blind faith can be deceiving.

No, but thank you for caring. I do take a look at my religion. I look up the points made at meetings, study them, and meditate on them, as do you.

And there is a Hell and a enternity of punishment awaiting evildoers. Only God can say who is going to be cast to there. You can NOT have God without having Satan. You must have the evil to have the good.

Many people think that evil people should go to a hell, but what does God think? Ask yourself, what kind of person is God? Take a look in your Bible at some of Gods qualities, such as at Deuteronomy 4:31, James 5:11 or 1 John 4:8 or Gods view on the wicked at Ezekiel 33:11. This shows how caring God is, that he wants the wicked to turn back from their ways. Notice God says "Turn back, turn back from your bad ways,.." He says 'turn back' not once, but twice. He's pleading to Isreal that they turn back to the righteous course so that they won't be destroyed. So with those Scriptures in mind, do you think God has a place destined for the wicked to be punished forever? Don't you think it makes more sense that all wicked, not only humans, but demons as well, will be destroyed forever with no memory of them whatsoever?

Before God created anything, it was only him. And of course we know God is good. So there can be good without evil. Some may think differently because we've always known of good and evil... we've never known perfectness.

Actually I have a good defense. In the Bible (if you read it and believe it) It does say over and over that there is a hell. And it does say that the evildoers will burn in a flame that will last for eternity.

Yes, many religions today believe in 'eternal hell fire', but, if you would, please show me from the Bible where it says the the soul will be tortured for eternity (if a sinner).

Oh, I think it's about overdue that this thread got back on topic.

Everyone has been  guilty of digression, but it's 'supposed' to be about Evolution vs Creation.

There is exactly NO relevance between this and a recruitment drive/promotion of the Jehovah's Witnesses, or for that matter the debunking thereof.

I think that absolutely nothing is gained from the re-iteration and regurgitation of entire tracts of a book in offense/defense of one specific version of religion.

Converts will not be had nor souls lost to eternal damnation by a website thread content, no matter what people may think/hope....

 

Hell is a place of inactivity

Maybe you didn't realize the first 4 words you stated earlier...Hell is a place

Are you contradicting yourself?

#941 by The Rated PG - 11/2/2003 11:43:00 PM creation vs evolution, not comparing religions outside of creation

I'll say it again

#1018  by PowerUser joetheblow - 11/5/2003 4:58:07 PM

The Bible never said the earth was flat.. it says just the opposite (Isaiah 40:22). SO? The Church and those who supposedly read the Bible and all of those in authority said it did. Now when all those who teach you the Bible and what it means says something it usually holds weight. This is an instance (ANOTHER ONE) where THE SAME SOURCE IS USED TO DESCRIBE SOMETHING. Can't admit that 'they' or 'we' or 'you' can use a source and make it to prove a point that you believe in??? It is your belief that that is what it MEANS. The Bible will always say something, BUT it is up to us to interpret that saying into MEANING THAT is where humanity goes wrong. Its a little harder to say the same of science because it leaves itself open for scrutiny. Unlike religion where it is believed by a GROUP that this is what the source means. Now that does not mean science can't be wrong, but science isn't exactly saying its 100% correct (99.999949959% is not 100% correct) Science has some idea that evolution must have taken place but there are some holes in the theory. For me, I believe evolution is a possibility and could have or is happening. Do I have faith in it??? NO. Do I think creation is how it happened. Yes. do I have faith in it? Yes. Can I say there is a possibility that it didn't happen that way? Yes. Does me being open to the idea that it might now be creation but evolution mean my faith IS SHATTERED TO PIECES as far as creation is concerned? No. Some will have you believe the world is black and white with some grays when it is actually full of colors. Literally. So jokingly I say this: The Universe was created and the Earth is flat. ------------------------------------- Some words to look up on individual perception, group think and other human, social, organizational attributes: Attribution Theory Halo Effect reading Comprehension Comprehension Perceived/Settings/perception Group development Group Think. Organizational Behavior Some of which is on my blog  Link and on my JTB-development blog site at joeuser.com ================================================= #975 by BakerStreet - 11/4/2003 9:13:13 AM **I'm sorry to again go off-topic, but this is very important to me. It is hard for me to not address what I consider to be church propaganda. R3fr has told people to look into the Jehovah's Witnesses, and has even asked that they contact members if they are interested. I think that demands a bit of balance, even if it is off-topic, because it endangers people's minds and lives.

I thought about this one and while I see it as more a 'tongue in cheek' post on r3fr part AND sort of a way of pulling more people into the religion I also must say that it is not to much different that and the other supportive links and texts that others used to help prove their point.


So more or less, no harm in r3fr's post.



Where is paxx???? I am sure I am para-phrasing when I say paxx would say that is how you perceive the situation but is raised in another family, place or time would your research come to the same conclusion? More like not than true.

I, too consider Jehovah's Witnesses ( Link ) ( Link )to be a cult. The Jehovah's Witness hierarchy has the tools in place to punish, shun and isolate those that threaten their power, openly question doctrine, and cause 'dissent'. They are in charge of the lives of their members.This is the main means of all cults to control. -Envelop the lives of members.-Make the members reliant on the church for 'fellowship'.-Give the church authority control over the spiritual afterlife of members.-Make it their sole authority, over and above 'earthly' powers.-Once they have become totally spiritually dependant, threaten to 'shun' (isolate) them if they don't fall into line. From their own site: Link and other examples of the JW isolation practice and 'spin': Link

Now this part (except for the JW being a cult) is true. I have spoke to my friends about this and some agree that tactics of approach are... shall we say pressure mental tactics.

These tactics are also used in other arenas but lets just say it tends to work.... get it?? Work??? At work??? Job??? Soldier???

At least in those arenas it is not about religion. It is easier to have a personal life outside of the the tactics. Plus the tactics can be used for healthy reasons is implemented properly.

Organizational Behavior.
Understand it. Know it. Work it.

joetheblow...

I had to delete your post....it'd fragged the thread page badly.

I posted what I could of it again for you...