just in case? I like that Grayhaze hehe
(like taking out an insurance policy?)

Reading through this thread I have been wondering why most people seem to exclude an after-life if they do not believe in (a) God. Why?

As a scientist I believe in the Theory of Evolution which for me also includes the evolution of my soul while I am here on earth. It also includes the possibilies of a species that is much older and higher in its state of evolution than humans. Whether one of them was involved in creating (enhancing) human life we won't know until we are actally able to contact it.

Maybe we have to evolve enough to find out how the Universe came into existence in order to finish your own development?

As for proof of the evolution Theory; DNA mapping is far from being finished and more missing links are getting connected every years. I think it is just a matter of time until we finally tie up the loose ends after all our knowledge of biological and geological processes is very limited at this stage.

After people pray and lay hands on each that... crippled people are healed and walk blind people see again Cancer cures itself Tumors shrink and dissappear Cronic smokers are freed of the habit Those who use drugs are freed from the habit Colds, flus, and common sickness is gone and those people healed Broken bones heal themselves...

Kona, some people claim to have seen flying saucers. Tens of thousands of them. David Copperfield can make the Empire State Building (or another big building I forget exactly) disapear. I personnally know a woman who claims she has been abducted.  A lot of people I know claim to have seen ghosts, or heard a dead relative or friend talk to them. Some people levitate from the ground with no wires.

Does it mean I believe it? No. Just as I don't believe the religious healings either.

my old man would be very disapointed with this thread ... j/k j/k. there is so much info about for arguing both sides but it's up to every individual to make a decision for themselves.

I for one do not lean either way, I am still trying to find the answer that I am happy with. This my take the rest of my life for me to come to a belief that I am happy with, or it may never happen.


Don't let the "nick" fool you, it's nothing sinister or evil (in my mind), it's just the name of a song I like by my favorite band "Danzig"

to each of you either live long and prosper, or "GOD" be with you.

xerraire is still waiting for the proof that greyhaze mentioned in the first line.
I really would like to know some.

This is a question that isn't ever going to be really answered, at least in terms of convincing all of the participants.

I'll wedge myself firmly in the middle here, by stating that I'm a scientist (engineer) who also believes in God. I am also firmly behind evolution (and cosmology, etc.).

First, to clear up one common misconception about what is regarded as the *theory* of evolution. The entire chain of evidence (common genetic heritage, the fossil record, etc.) fully support the concept that life did progress from simpler to more complex forms (and the Second law of thermodynamics wasn't violated, as the energy from the sun more than makes up for any order gained in evolution). What constitutes the theory part is the proposal that the mechanism of natural selection is responsible for the specific outcome of evolution. That species evolve is a dead certain fact, it is clearly observed in the current world (especially as regards insects, bacteria, virii, and many other organisms with a rapid life cycle). There are valid concerns about the initial event that caused abiogenesis (the original instantiation of first life). But unless we can go back in time and watch it occur on our planet (or find a location where it is currently occurring), we will never be able to do much more than speculate about it.

My personal take on the whole creation idea is that God set up the initial conditions for the entire universe and started it up (with the big bang, for example), with the full expectation that it would culminate in the existence of intelligent life. I also think that His purpose for that intelligent life is nothing so limited as to simply revere Him, but thatt we should also grow and learn and understand the system that He created. There is nothing in science that, IMHO, violates that expectation, indeed it is one of the purest expressions of that ideal.

IMHO, God is the purest expression of love, ethics, and justice. He cannot be jealous or mean spirited, or vengeful, as those qualities would diminish His purity. Certain people want Him to have those impure qualities because they want to use God as a weapon, the purpose of which is to frighten others into believing as they do. The thing is that motivation matters. If you believe because you are afraid of what God will do, that isn't doing any justice to God whatsoever. It is the moral equivalent of obeying someone because they have a gun to your head.

As to the accuracy of the Bible, it is a wonderful source of history, it is full of good examples of behaviour, and it is worth it to follow the spirit of what is written. But you cannot literally follow the text. Even if you argue that the original texts were divinely inspired (even though most of those were the written form of oral stories told over generations), the fact that the texts were edited, altered, and compiled by people with agendas other than the complete expression of truth requires one to use critical thinking to properly extract the true meaning. The problem that I have with the literalists is that they are effectively placing the bible above God Himself.

"Do not say 'I follow the one true path of the Spirit,' but rather, 'I have found the Spirit walking on my path,' for the Spirit walks on all paths" -- Khalil Ghibran

Xerraire, concrete proof is skeletons of uncivilized man (cave men/neanderthals). They were unintelligent and walked slumped over...they barely knew how to create weapons to hunt for their food. We are now MUCH more advanced and thus...proves our evolution. It's the initial creation we cannot prove.

I like the evolution theory that man evolved from the ocean/water. It is very interesting to hear how we are the only land based mamal that aren't covered with "fur" and the theory as to why babies are born with "babyfat" that allows them to float in water.

I just really like that particular theory.

Aleatoric, if I were to believe in God, it would be close to what you are saying.  As I said, I don't believe there is a God, but I totally reject the idea that there is one (or several) either.  And if there is a God, I do not believe he (she/they?) is good, or evil, but somewhere in the middle. As I've said in a previous post months ago, I do not believe in Good or Evil. I believe these are cultural concepts that don't have the same definition in different geographical and temporal contects.  But I'm not going to come back on this particular issue as it's been discussed before.

By the way, The Prophet is an excellent book, thanks for the quote.

Hus, a more concrete proof that evolution exists (it continues to exist, it's not a thing of the past) is in Aleatoric's post.  Evolution through mutations have been observed concretely in insects and other small life-span lifeforms such as virii and bacterias.

Paxx, I wasn't answering the question on evolution as a whole, just evolution of man.

If there is a God I'm going to come back and seriously haunt some of you people.

I'm on either side of this which means "I don't know" I will not make a guess err, I mean give faith to something that I have no idea about.

I think for most people *not all* that God in any form mystic/super being/scary guy above the clouds is a crutch for people. It helps them get by when they have nothing else because there aren't any explainations.

My friend gave me the best answer when I asked him "Why do you believe in God" Answer: I don't want to go to hell. I hate people who have such blind faith.

B1uesummers I know what you mean, when I am scared or being chased I say to my self, Oh lord PLEASE let me get through this. LMAO

Thanks Paxx The Prophet is a favorite of mine, as well.

I also agree that there is little point in beating this horse, there is little chance of changing minds. I still like to get my $0.02 in from time to time

Hus,

Abiogenesis is one of the really big questions, no doubt of it. We can hypothesize and speculate all we want, but any theory we come up with is difficult to test in a way that assures us we're on the right path. There have been many experiments where the precursors of life have been formed in an environment that resembles what would have been on earth in the distant past. The problem with those are that we have no way of knowing, exactly, what those conditions were, and none of these experiments has progressed to the point of self-replication.

It may not be perfect, it may not be complete, we may rewrite it (or parts of it) many times as we learn, but evolution is currently the *best* theory we have to explain the whole of life on earth and its relationship to us (and us to it). The knowledge we have gained from studying life at that level has enabled us to begin to understand the intricacies of genetics and the mechanisms of life in ways that allow us to improve our ability to heal others, aid longevity, and provide us with the tools to understand (for example) how diseases affect us, and hopefully, how to ultimately deal with the ongoing mutation of the disease vectors in ways that allow us to head them off at the pass, so to speak.

No theory that can help us do all of that can be completely wrong. And even if it is incorrect in places, its very effectiveness as a tool makes it a valuable tool and field of study.

sir hus, paxx,
I really need a better proof or explanation.
I am truly interested to see this backed up.

Perhaps I should explain.
When I went to school, evolution was only mentioned in the 3rd grade, and at that, barely. 3rd grade here is 8 years old. So as you can guess, I remember nothing except the poster on the wall showing ape evolving to man, and that was the only 'mention' evolution got.