Looks good!

Jafo, using Word as my HTML editor in IE, News and Email. But I have a tunnel I am running through and that might be is, stripping bits?

Anyway, I will hold back a bit before quoting and responding for to night.

Lady Akasha, I will respond though, just wanted to let you know so you did not think I was flippant or ignoring you. The points and situation you make are just as or more so valid than my feeble attempts to construction a point to stem from understanding.

Lady Akasha - Why should an artist receive a not so favorable comment? Umm because there is no such thing as making something EVERYONE will like, or think is great. That is ridiculous! Why doesn't the person who thinks 'it sucks' have a right to say...'it sucks'?

instead of replying to this as a skin author, i am going to reply to this as a writer (ducks in case Jafo is around ). i use Word for this (build in spell checker) which helps

there are a couple of other sites i spend a lot of time where people write and upload short stories. this is a different skill to making skins, but it is still a creative person making "beautiful" things for fun, and sharing them for free.

i have written and upload a few stories myself, so feel i am qualified to comment

as here, it is common for an upload to get virtually no feedback or comment. since this has also happened to me, i tend to be sensitive about this, and if i have something to say, i make a point of saying it, so at least the author gets 1 piece of feedback

Lady Akasha, your point is fair. some of the works are not as good as others.

however, since i appreciate how much work it can take to produce something you are happy to upload and share i have a great respect for anyone who has done this.

so, if i feel that a story isn't very good, or is poorly constructed, or is simply not very clear, i will say so. but, i will say so in a polite and respectful manor. before commenting i ask "could i have done any better?"

with that in mind, if i say i don't like it, i strive to explain why, and where possible offer constructive criticism. i feel there is always more to learn, no matter who you are, or how good you are.

also, i try to separate out "good, but not to my taste" from "not good", since these are very different things.

so, my final reaction / comment on this is that there is no reason why a skin creator (or author) should not expect and get responses that say "i don't like it", or "there is a problem with it". however, this can be done:
* with respect, and appreciation for the hard work that the author put into this for free
* in a rude and unhelpful manor

i would hope that we can all agree that the first is far preferable, and the second is not to be encouraged.

I don't think very many of you actually understood the point I was making in my initial post. I wasn't upset about getting a bad comment, as I've had plenty of these in the past, but more about a small trend of e-mails that I've received recently where someone insults my work and then demands technical support. It's more a case of disliking bad manners than it is about whatever ego I may or may not have.

Anyway, as I've already mentioned, this particular e-mail was apparently due to a breakdown in language rather than outright bad manners.

As for comments on skins, I always welcome constructive criticism of my work, with careful reasoning behind any complaints. It's very rare to get such a comment though, as the majority of bad comments are along the lines of 'you suck' or nit-picking for the sake of attacking a person's work regardless of the individual work being discussed. Over on another skinning site where I uploaded this particular skin I had a nice long comment from someone who thought that the skin sucked because of a three-pixel-high 'TM' sign on the Windows flag and 'the complete lack of antialiasing', which were both irrelevant and completely untrue respectively.

Lady Akasha wrote: "Umm because there is no such thing as making something EVERYONE will like, or think is great. That is ridiculous! Why doesn't the person who thinks 'it sucks' have a right to say...'it sucks'?

And I am sorry, as much as I do like this site--there is little room for the TRUTH. If someone actually said, "This is really awful" to a fellow artist it would be uproar!"


I couldn’t have said it better myself. The hyper-sensitivity to anything negative (whether it’s constructive or not) around these parts is quite unfortunate.

#11 by Admin KarmaGirl - 6/17/2003 6:46:19 PM grayhaze, why can't you just believe that you are not god's gift to skinning? Geez...what an ego! KarmaGirl runs quickly away so that she doesn't get smacked with a dead trout by grayhaze...yes, and I was joking in case anyone didn't understand..

Don't make me hurt you...

grayhaze readies a live trout for extra comedic effect

As for those people who think it's right for someone to comment that a skin 'sucks', you obviously hold little pride in the work you do. When producing a skin over several weeks solid hard work which is then made available to download for free, it shouldn't be out of the question to expect a little respect. I don't mind if people don't like the final result, but it would be nice if they could at least acknowledge the hard work that went into it.

As creatives, we naturally hold a hightened sense of pride in our work, as it's something both very personal and very important to us. It's true that criticism isn't the easiest thing to swallow, and that ability only comes with experience, but outright bad manners never get any easier to accept. You put your heart and soul into producing something that you hope will bring pleasure to people, only to have someone turn around and spit in your face. I don't think I'd ever want to accept that sort of behaviour.

A bad responce just needs carefull wording

Orion...nothing 'wrong' about the 'truth'.

But what IS wrong is some inane comment such as 'this sux', or for that matter 'this rox'.

What 'would' be quite OK would be 'I really dislike this' [perhaps with reasons].

Ideals would see a commensurate effort in critique to the work's creation effort/s.

Some poor sod of a skinner toils for weeks over his first WB skin just for the benefit of some no-brain dweeb to post 'this sux'?

How 'unfortunate' is that?...

The lady is right so far as it goes - nobody can make something that appeals to everyone.

However there are some truly awesome (awfully good ) stuff on this site that I don't use because it doesn't appeal to me personally or because it's enough like something else I have that I don't choose to use it. That's a whole bunch different than "sux", at least IMO.
That isn't "TRUTH" nor is a skinner being "hypersensitive" to be offended by that sort of comment.

#36 by JourneyMan grayhaze - 6/18/2003 5:43:34 AM #11 by Admin KarmaGirl - 6/17/2003 6:46:19 PM grayhaze, why can't you just believe that you are not god's gift to skinning? Geez...what an ego! KarmaGirl runs quickly away so that she doesn't get smacked with a dead trout by grayhaze...yes, and I was joking in case anyone didn't understand.. Don't make me hurt you... grayhaze readies a live trout for extra comedic effect

 

oohhhhh...nobody expects a *live* trout!

Jafo: In your context and in your examples...I concur. You rox!

37 by JourneyMan grayhaze - 6/18/2003 5:52:06 AM As for those people who think it's right for someone to comment that a skin 'sucks', you obviously hold little pride in the work you do.

I completely 100% disagree on that statement. What does someone having the right to say they utterly dislike a piece have to do with one having or not having pride in their work?

If an artist is so proud of their work, and then one person decides 'it's awful' and that person is so overcome by this statement we have either one of two things. Either that artist DIDN"T have very much pride/confidence to begin with or if they're in such uproar over it--they need a reality check and come back down to earth.

Find what there is to be learned from it. Sure hearing 'it sucks' can sting quite hard. After the feeling of being insulted wears off, look at the design see what can be improved.

Freedom of speech is everyone's right. Manners or approach have no factor in said law. Of course tact, manners, and approach should be handled correctly--but reality is that isn't always so.

it shouldn't be out of the question to expect a little respect.

You're right it shouldn't. Of course it would be nice if all the long hours of work is appreciated because creation of ANY kind is more than just hard work, there's a little piece of that artists heart and soul in that design, whatever it may be. I agree with you. However, it shouldn't be assumed that it is 'owed.' Again that is where my little word can come into play again...."Humble"

You put your heart and soul into producing something that you hope will bring pleasure to people, only to have someone turn around and spit in your face. I don't think I'd ever want to accept that sort of behaviour.

"spit in your face" a little intense, isn't it? If an artist of any genre gets a statement such as "I think its quite bad.Sorry don't see why you're so popular" (these are JUST examples of comments) is that a 'spit in the face'? I don't think so. It would suck to recieve such a comment, and yep that sting would cause discomfort. HOWEVER it's not a spit in the face--it's a comment simply stating you're not 'that' good in this being's opinion.

Would it be nice if that person who felt that a work 'sucks' used tact and manners? ABSOLUTELY! And naturally we'd all prefer that. Who wouldn't! But again, I have to stress people DO have a right to say they don't like something in anyway they see fit.

It should be a learning experience, and hopefully grounding.

Candid comments are not so common here as I mentioned before, and in truth-- that's a shame. Because at some other sites it does get pretty candid at times--and it can be not only humbling but a growing experience. Often one says "Ouch that hurt!" but there's something to be learned from everything.

Lady Akasha....you misinterpreted the quote in #37....grayhaze said that if a person is happy to comment that another person's work sucks then the commenter hasn't pride in his OWN work, or else he would not belittle the efforts of others so readily....at least that's my interpretation of his comment...

Freedom of speech is about the rights of an individual to hold his own opinion and verbalize it, and not freedom of language choice, or freedom of acceptable moral respectability.  It's not about a freedom to be rude at all. 

"it's a comment simply stating you're not 'that' good in this being's opinion."....fortunately such comments are only as good as the 'quality' [perceived or real] of the person stating it.

If Alexandrie stated my WB skin was crap then I'd be obliged to concur.  If a 'newbie' non-skinner said it was crap I'd pat him on the head and ignore it.....UNLESS he was coherent enough to proffer an explanation, since his bona-fides do not precede him.

Remember....'any way they see fit' includes some quite juicy language which could make a hardenned Marine blush....and that 'right' they very definitely do NOT have on this site...

Lady Akasha - If an artist is so proud of their work, and then one person decides 'it's awful' and that person is so overcome by this statement we have either one of two things. Either that artist DIDN"T have very much pride/confidence to begin with or if they're in such uproar over it--they need a reality check and come back down to earth.

i feel i have to respond to this. you seem to be making the assumption that when an artist (lets say me, since i know how i feel) uploads something to this site, then i must be quite confident in it.

what is the basis for this assumption? i have written a small and simple DX plugin which a couple of kind people are testing for me. when i have polished it a bit more i am planning on uploading it.

however, this is my first (and so far only) DX plugin. i am NOT "deeply confident" about it, but it does what it is supposed to do on at least 2 machines. i don't consider that a good basis for excessive confidence in it. perhaps i am just a very sensitive person *shrug*

so, if after uploading i get 2 comments, one saying it is very useful, and one rude one saying it is crap, what am i to think?

should i get up on my high horse, and decide to ignore the bad comment since i "know" that my work is flawless and wonderful? that would be the very egotism that people seem to object to.

should i ignore all comments from people who have never themselves written a plugin, since they aren't "qualified to appreciate my work"? if so, then why am i bothering to upload (share) it in the first place?

perhaps this is simply a matter of perspective, but i don't really see where you are coming from.

is it "wrong" of me to hope that if my plugin helps some people they will respond with a few kind words??? after all, that is the only payment i am expecting to get here.