I think feline hit the nail on the head when she talked about payment. The majority of work that is uploaded here is made freely available and the only payment we get for our hard work is to see that our work is appreciated. I don't consider that in any way egotistical.

Although a particular upload might not be considered to be their best work by the author, they will usually feel that what they have produced is of a high standard, otherwise they wouldn't upload it in the first place. So there is a certain amount of pride involved in the response that they get.

I respect and welcome constructive comments about my work, and usually work to fix any problems that come to my attention. However, a 'spit-in-the-face' comment such as 'this sucks' or 'why did you upload this crap' does nothing to make me want to take a look at my work and improve it. Such comments are just plain rude and unnecessary. Freedom of speech can be taken a little too far these days, and is often used as an excuse to throw around vicious attacks which should be a thing of the past in a civilized world.

Those pointless comments are the kind that should just be kept to yourself. They serve no purpose other than to create ill feeling, and I don't see how anyone can argue otherwise. All it takes is one comment of 'this broke my machine' or 'windowblinds sucks' to cast doubt on the usefulness of a skin for other potential downloaders, and such comments are usually intended as an attack on either the author or the product they are skinning.

My irritation really comes from those people who feel that they need to e-mail you to tell you 'your skin sucks', and offer no constructive criticism to back up their claim. This is something very unique to the internet, and I think is something of a step backwards in moral and ethical behaviour. That same person would never dream of writing a letter to their next door neighbour to tell them their house is a mess or that their garden's ugly.

Aye did I get myself in a pickle or what? (not that doesn't mean that I take back anything I said.)

First off, GRAYHAZE let me say this before anything else. "My points were not neccessarily a jab at you. I don't know you enough to do that. Two, your incident is as I mentioned before; This person was obviously very contradictory. Secondly, the fact that they did that via email rather than on the actual comments section strikes me as odd. But then again some people do that I suppose--I get a lot of comments on my work via email instead. I'm not neccessarily (can't spell that word for beans) validating this person in particular.
My statements were generalized about artists not being able to handle negative feedback all too often.

#44 by Jafo - 6/18/2003 11:36:57 PM Lady Akasha....you misinterpreted the quote in #37....grayhaze said that if a person is happy to comment that another person's work sucks then the commenter hasn't pride in his OWN work, or else he would not belittle the efforts of others so readily....at least that's my interpretation of his comment...

Maybe I did, that is quite possible. And if so, my bad, and I'm sorry.

Remember....'any way they see fit' includes some quite juicy language which could make a hardenned Marine blush....and that 'right' they very definitely do NOT have on this site...

That is very true, I can't argue that. However, I think it's safe to say that I don't support such verbal expression or language as by my own commenting during my time here, has NEVER been brash or inappropriate. I've always been respectful and the like, my actions speak for itself. I am always respectful and 'try' to be encouraging and say nice things. As just like you folks I hope for the same thing in return.

However, I don't think there is a thing so proposterous about me saying that getting negative feedback CAN BE HUMBLING! and even SHOULD BE HUMBLING! I AGREE with all your statements about the hard work, the heart, the time that goes into making the work and such things should be taken into consideration before blurting out a nasty statement. ALL AGREED! But I am saying that isn't always the reality!

There is this atittude of viewers/uses have less rights to an opinion if they are not an artist themself. *rattles head* Ummm the viewers are the ones that come here all the time, pay for their subscriptions to get the skins, walls, icons,etc. Because they've never broken down and made a skin, they can't say "I'm sorry I just don't like it--it doesn't look very good." Well, now that persons statement holds no value--their not a skinner. I'm sorry I've heard such statements on several occassions and I don't agree with that and never will. That's like saying a patient can't say their doctor isn't very good because he doesn't know how to do surgery.

Let's say a citizen makes a post and says; "I was browsing through the selection of skins, I was hoping for something a bit dramatic and very artistic. Everthing seems nice, but rather bland..." Let's be real, that citizen would get STOMPED over here. Because he said most of the work is bland. Why doesn't he have that right? If that is what he/she feels why is it not ok to say that? I'm not saying "like it", keep that in mind.

My whole point is that, I just think people should have the right to say they don't like something if they don't, without being considered a nimwit. If an artist CHOSES to post their works on a world wide web, making it open for feedback they ARE giving the open public such freedoms, then they should be able to handle it diplomatically. I agree a statement such as 'this sucks' isn't the most intellectual of statements, I AGREE. But if that's what they feel they do have that right. (I am NOT speaking of speech that would "make a marine blush") Which that statement in itself if you think about it is quite isulting and politically incorrect. That's insulting the couth of all marines, if you think about it.

P.S.

That same person would never dream of writing a letter to their next door neighbour to tell them their house is a mess or that their garden's ugly.

I would! If that person is nasty and has all their junk in the front yard...or something of the like, they're devaluing the worth of my property!

OK...language that would make a motor-race official blush, then.....[and I've been one for 30 years so I can vouch for their/our usual lurid eloquence]....mustn't upset the Marines....fragile as they are....

As for the layman saying the skin is 'bland' ....that's fine as it's a personal opinion....what is not of any real 'value' is a layman claiming it is 'childish' or 'badly done', when he usually has no idea at all what is involved in creating it and therefore has no understanding of whether the outcome WAS 'badly done' or not. Anyone ever wondered why skinners tend to be older than the average of the skin users? Food for thought there....

I agree with Lady Akasha.

I agree that users should be allowed to make comments along the lines of 'I don't like this, it could be better', even though those comments aren't of any real use to anyone. The distinction I've made a couple of times already is between those comments and the kind that you'd say to the plumber who's just torn out all of the pipes in your bathroom and then holds his hand out for payment.

I think the users have things the wrong way round. They somehow feel that us skinners owe them something for the time they've taken to look at your work, when really it's they who owe something (if only a little respect) for the time we've taken to create something for them, regardless of the outcome. They may argue that having paid a subscription fee to the site or having bought a Stardock product entitles them to say what they want to the skinners who keep the site going, but that simply isn't the case.

As I said before, skinners in general don't get any payment for the work they do, so the fact that a user has paid a subscription to the site makes absolutely no difference to them. They create skins because it's something they enjoy, and offer them to others as an added extra. They don't need comments to feel they have done a good job, as the download figures go some way to measuring how well they've done, but nice comments add a little incentive to continuing their work. The outright negative comments serve no purpose whatsoever, other than to hurt the skinner and make them feel like it's not worth their time to create anything new. We've seen plenty of skinners quit because of negative comments in the past.

I don't see why we should just sit back and accept non-constructive negative comments. It all comes down to respect. Regardless of whether the user commenting has an idea of the amount of work that went into a skin, it's not exactly a huge leap of intuition to realise that a skin takes more than a casual afternoon's work to put together.

I also have to agree with Lady A. In so far as a lot of comments/statements that are not 'shiningly positive' tend to get mobbed a lot of the time with very negative and provocative rebukes or name calling, often from some of the regular posters here.I'm not talking about the moronic 'this sux' kind, but the general 'hmm, I don't really like this' kind. I feel these types of rebukes are often as rude as the original 'that sux' poster. I think that kind of response inhibits any real feedback that can be useful to an artist in order to see the things he/she missed or overlooked. People may tend to refrain from posting anything but 'happy' comments and, although they are very ego boosting, don't do a lot to help an artist grow and expand.

Don't get me wrong; there is some constructive criticism here. I welcome that type of feedback.

I don't like it when I get those senseless comments either, but what do I gain from baiting those types of posters? If I respond in a blatantly negative and abusive manner, what does it do to improve the culture and sense of community?


eieio holds a private conversation with himself

(OK, pictoratus, you told yourself you would never get involved in these types of discussions. Now you've done it!)

i think in part this discussion comes back to the age old (well, i feels like that anyway ) question of "who is most important to the site".

i am not sure that is quite the right way to phrase it, but i think that is close enough.

if the skinners are the most important, then the idea that they must be protected from all negative reactions, and only see lovely comments makes sense (yes, this is a bit extreme).

if the people who pay to support the site are the most important, then they have the "right" to say what ever they want about anything that is uploaded at this site.

neither of this is the real situation. the site needs both sets of people, and other groups as well (like the admins, the coders, etc)

of late this message board does seem less tolerant, and more sensitive. but, you need to remember that it wasn't long ago that it felt like it was being ripped apart from within.

for any skin, there are going to be people who like it, and people who don't like it. no doubt as a skin author it is nice to hear that people love your work

should people never say they don't like a specific skin? i would say no.

Lady Akasha - Let's say a citizen makes a post and says; "I was browsing through the selection of skins, I was hoping for something a bit dramatic and very artistic. Everthing seems nice, but rather bland..." Let's be real, that citizen would get STOMPED over here. Because he said most of the work is bland. Why doesn't he have that right? If that is what he/she feels why is it not ok to say that? I'm not saying "like it", keep that in mind.

i would like to think they wouldn't get stomped.

there have been many cases where this seemed to happen, but normally they are where someone who we have never seen post or comment before appears on the message board, complains that all of the walls (for example) are "crap", there is nothing they want here, and why cannot they download anything more?

now, this was normally triggered by them reaching their download limit, which used to be 50 meg. under the circumstances, it is reasonable to ask if they hate so much of the work here, why have they downloaded so much of it, and why are they demanding the right to download even more of it for free?

over all, i agree that artists should be aware that not everyone likes their work. at the same time, a reasoned "critique" from a fellow skinner is going to get more attention, and deserve more respect, than a row of vomit icons (thankfully no longer available).

so, a request (although most people probably wont spot it buried in this thread ):
if you don't like a skin, and decide to tell the artist this, please be polite, and if possible, give some reason for your views.

eg, "i don't really like this wall since it is far to dark for my tastes, and doesn't provide any sensible space for my icons"

any skinners want to comment on this? i presume you aren't going to object to, or get upset about, this sort of "constructive" negative feedback. personally, i would be quite happy with these sort of comments.

As I said before I would recommend anyone just to have an exhibition of your work in a gallery......Now just go incognito and listen to upstarts and people that have the urge to degrade anything. It's a laugh. Only a few will give their real thoughts and maybe dare to give advice. You, as the artist will learn to sift the meant comments soon enough. On a site like this, it is just the same. It will vary from "rox" to "sux" and both are meaningless, unless it has the "because bla bla bla and I would do bla bla bla" comment behind it. That will give the author some idea where to improve (or not). Otherwise it's just "a comment" with which you can boost your ego, or maybe some incentive for sheep to skip or download your work.

Excellent points, feline

That's all I'm asking for feline, a little constructive criticism. I like getting that sort of feedback, as if enough people feel the same way about an aspect of my work I'll make a real effort to change it.

I never said that people shouldn't be able to say they don't like something. I'd find the site a pretty dull place if all I got on my skins were comments saying 'fantastic' or 'well done'. I like to be able to improve my skills, and in many ways I find skinning a good medium to do this with. I'm probably the harshest critic of my own work, and it doesn't take more than a few minutes after a skin is complete for me to start picking fault with it, so I would never suggest that others can't do the same.

So the whole issue comes down to one thing - more constructive criticism, less abuse.

GH:

I think the users have things the wrong way round. They somehow feel that us skinners owe them something for the time they've taken to look at your work

While I support pretty much everything you've said, I take umbriage here. With the exception of admittedly more than a few trolls, skin comments and messages show, I think, rather a lot of support and appreciation from the majority of us users.

It all comes down to respect

Here, here! A round of ale for all! "Whiskey for my men and beer for my horses"

Chef Garry >> My apologies for that comment, as it wasn't really worded in the way I intended it. I was referring to the users who leave the unkind comments, not users in general.

I understood that, just felt the point needed to be made. You've always shown yourself to be a gentleman and I appreciate your work and your comments. Nice design on your website too!